I'm not saying I'm for those over open source licenses in general, but Prusa brought up some fair questions when discussing the OCL. Essentially: define "personal use." Have I violated a non-commercial license if I print this keyboard and then use it to build someone a website? Does CC-NC mean a Prusacaster -- or any guitar knob with such a license for that matter -- is strictly barred from being taken on tour? Or used to record albums that are then sold? (And I say "guitar" knob, but I'm choosing an example a little consciously that could exist in any variety of controls, instrument and otherwise.)
Where are the lines of that when it's physical things? How far downstream does that go if it isn't CC-NC-SA in particular?
I'm not really sure that Creative Commons had the idea of physical production in mind, given that it dates back to a time when we were more broadly talking about digital piracy, and I honestly haven't kept up with its evolution much in more recent years. But maybe it just doesn't make the same sense for designs of physical things, for comparable reasons to why it wouldn't make sense for code -- and, conversely, open source projects that opt to use CC licenses for assets.
(None of this would stop me from attempting to build/mod one for fun, mind you. It just raises what a more averse person might call risks, and what I will at least call curiosities.)
Not a lawyer, but as I understand it the license is a matter of copyright, and the copyright only applies to the design files. So as long as you're making that keyboard for yourself then you should be good to do anything you want with the keyboard, because it is no longer using the license at that point.
Now, what is interesting is if someone were to blatantly violate the license and start manufacturing commercial keyboards. I believe their only recourse would be to revoke their license of the design files, and then it would be copyright infringement. The thing is, I don't know how copyright law would handle any damages.
I don't know if making a physical product could be a violation of copyright, regardless of if you had a license to use the design in the first place. I could definitely imagine a company trying to enforce this, and a judge throwing it out because it should have been handled with patents.
> Not a lawyer, but as I understand it the license is a matter of copyright, and the copyright only applies to the design files. So as long as you're making that keyboard for yourself then you should be good to do anything you want with the keyboard, because it is no longer using the license at that point.
What if I take the design, print it, include the thing in a staged photo, and sell prints of the photo?
What if I skip the printing and use the design files as a basis for a rendered photo or animation?
What if I print the design, then use a 3D scanner to recreate a file from the physical artifact?
> What if I take the design, print it, include the thing in a staged photo, and sell prints of the photo?
This is probably acceptable
> What if I skip the printing and use the design files as a basis for a rendered photo or animation?
This is probably NOT acceptable
> What if I print the design, then use a 3D scanner to recreate a file from the physical artifact?
If you used that for personal things yes that would be acceptable. I do not think that would give you the right to then sell that as a product neither digitally nor phsically
You're asking some pretty niche copyright questions that even a lawyer would have to spend time searching for case law for. It may be more expedient to look for that case law yourself.
What if I print the design, then use a 3D scanner to recreate a file from the physical artifact?
Hmm, without patents it would definitely be fine to scan an existing one and recreate it. I think this would be fine too, but any time you are clearly going out of your way to skirt the law is a red flag. The thing is, I don't even think technical designs are copyrightable outside of their aesthetic value.
What if I take the design, print it, include the thing in a staged photo, and sell prints of the photo?
What if I skip the printing and use the design files as a basis for a rendered photo or animation?
If it is indeed covered by copyright, then these would likely be violations, though I guess it depends on how prominent it is in the staged photo.
Hasn’t Creative Commons disavowed or at least really downplayed the NC license for exactly these reasons? There are so many ambiguities and headaches involved that the only advice I’ve ever seen is not to use it.
Likewise, I was unaware of this (and still see it in use regularly, especially on places like Printables as I've recently gotten my hands on a printer myself)
I'd consider another Keychron (my first mechanical since a couple of AT and PS/2 Model M and variant devices I had years and years ago) and I like some stuff about it and definitely like the price, but would look for a model with a few differences next time and probably skip Keychron if I couldn't get all of these fixed in one of their boards:
1 - Longer battery life (I have a bluetooth + plug-in model). The battery life is crazy-low, even when not in use and the lights are turned off. I keep it plugged in all the time, as a result. I don't really get why it can't last, idle, about as long as a game controller does (many weeks! And those don't have much space for batteries).
2 - No light pattern button. That thing exists only to accidentally hit and switch it away from "gently and evenly lit" which is one of the very-few non-insane patterns available. Brush it by accident, there goes a minute or so of your time getting it back to something that's not trying to look like a disco ball. And it's right on the corner, so you will hit it by accident when moving the keyboard around or reaching for something just past it. Easily my least-favorite thing about the board, despite how bad the next item is.
3 - Mine has a kind of tray-design around the edge, resulting in about a 1/8" lip, that looks very cheap to assemble (so that's nice, lower price) but means it collects EVERYTHING out of the air and is a pain in the ass to clean. It also makes it look kinda like someone's 3D printed hobby project. Like it's an ugly keyboard, both because of the design and because it's visibly collecting dust and hair just a few days after its last keys-removed full cleaning.
I have their Q60, which is a retro-themed HHKB layout 60% board. Paired with a set of beige-Mac-themed MT3 Extended 2048 keycaps, out of my collection it's one of my favorites and sees some of the most use. It goes head to head with pricier one-off hobbyist boards.
I wonder how suitable these CAD files would be for either CNCing or resin-printing a translucent fruit-colored plastic case for a different flavor of retro. That'd be really cool.
Both variants are great but I'm particularly fond of the PBT version. The slightly rough/matte texture that doesn't wear away easily and exaggerated dome shapes are sublime to use.
I still use my K2, which I bought in 2019 from Kickstarter, non-stop. What a piece of hardware! I have no plans to switch and will use it until it dissolves, which doesn’t seem to be happening in the next decade or so
Why do you like rhe 96% layout? I prefer the full space, recently upgraded to a Q6 Ultra, I’m really happy I can get a wireless version of most of their models these days.
Wider keyboards (with the space for arrow keys and number keys to the right) put extra strain on your right shoulder when you use the mouse in your right hand.
I've been using a narrow keyboard and ergonomic mouse for 2 weeks, and my shoulder pain is starting to go away.
I put a number pad on the left and it's much easier to key in numbers with my left hand instead of using my mouse with my left hand.
Not open source or open hardware, which they are pretty clear about.
> This project is source-available. Personal and educational use is allowed, and commercial use is allowed for compatible accessories. You may not copy and sell Keychron keyboards or mice [...].
It's awesome if you mod your own gear, and 3d printing / one off part services are ubiquitous, so if you see something you like online, it's cheap and easy to do little upgrades.
More companies should do what they do - the less ethical players are already cloning knockoffs anyways, stuff like this builds brand loyalty and probably makes it more likely that people stick with Keychron over going for the knockoffs.
I bought one too - most heavy and heavy duty keyboard I have ever owned.
I wanted to use it but it has one fatal flaw - the backlighting is unusable.
The keys it comes with are decent, but opaque, so the backlight doesn't actually illuminate the keys. And if you get shine-through keycaps, the LEDs are mounted below the center of the key instead of above, and you don't get good illumination.
sigh.
I used to use topre realforce rgb, then tried keychron, now use steelseries apex pro exclusively.
if they could fix it, giving me illuminated shine-through keys, I would go back to stay.
"Production-grade hardware design files... Study real CAD... Learn from how real products are built... STEP"
I'm sorry, I hate to be that guy, but while STEP files are often used as the final export to the contract manufacturer to cut the molds, or for some level of fit checking, they're not used for anything else. The real engineering that you can actually learn from is in the SolidWorks (or equivalent) part files, and you'll note that they're not offering those.
I have an IBM Model M, but after prolonged sessions of coding, my finger joints are aching. Are these Keychron keyboard have better switches or what are the experience using these mechanical ones?
Some would call buckling spring style (which inm keyboard use) surperiour to all the mx style switches. It is definitly on the more tactile end, so having aches doesnt surpise me. The variety in MX switches is bonkers. A well known switch collector called Theramingoat has over 4000 different ones. So if you get a hotswap board (keychron is not a bad place to start, but you can find better value-board for the same money nowadays), you can definitely find a switch of your liking. Check out milktooth, you can get a sample pack of different switches to try. And return the ones you dont like.
I've had three keyboards with red switches, two from Ducky that were Cherry switches and one from Lenovo that may be another company's switches, but feel the same. None failed on their own but I spilled drinks on the first two and they were never the same. Maybe check out some of the lighter switches, even reds are way lighter than my old 1990s model M. https://www.cherry.de/en-gb/products/switches
Quite likely - the buckling spring switches in Model M are quite stiff as far as keyboards go. Brown switches are a good choice if you want a light switch with some amount of tactility.
There is (deliberately) not much consistency or uniformity on the switches in mechanical because keyboard nerds are such a picky bunch. I got the Keychron Q11 specifically because the switches could be changed out. I replaced the Brown switches it came with with some "Zilent V2" switches with a much higher activation force.
It can be a dangerous rabbit hole if you let it, but if you're just looking for an approximation of the Model M but that requires less force, then something with "Brown" switches might be up your alley. This one in particular has a similar aesthetic, comes with Brown switches as an option, and at a pretty good price.
- It's way, way too heavy. Heavier than my Northgate Omnikey Ultra. Like it's more adept as an improvised weapon as much as any keyboard ever was.
- Didn't come with all black enter and escape caps (they were red orange), requiring purchasing an expensive complete replacement set.
Minor areas for improvement:
~ Battery life could be better.
~ Charging takes a long time and I'm unsure if there's a charge finished indicator.
~ Would be nice to have an offline flash update & macro programmer to not depend on cloud-based software that will eventually evaporate like everything else.
I do like:
+ Replaceability of switches as I've tried a bunch, settling on Kailh Box White V2.
+ RGB effects can be turned off completely or show a solid color at low brightness.
+ Native USB proprietary wireless dongle, BT with 3 profiles, or wired.
Can't speak much to most of your complaints (I like my keyboard heavy, planned to change all the keycaps and switches, and didn't get a wireless keyboard), but you can download an offline version of Via to configure it. https://github.com/the-via/releases/releases
Oh, does this involve their questionable kickstarter units with the cheap knockoff keys they refused to warranty or support, but were known faulty, and they swiftly replaced in store in the first 6 months? The ones that are pin incompatible with any other standard keys so you cant replace them? Yknow, the ones that mean I will never buy or recommend a keychron kb again?
The list of model numbers is clearly stated in the repo README and you’re apparently a subject matter expert on this; so, please look up the answer to your question and let us know.
I know, but given the subject of the OP it was an irrelevant garbage comment from a jilted user trying to smear the company. It deserves an equally obtuse response.
Great that these are source-available, but I wish they had a human copy edit the README, it's unbearable.
On the source-available piece:
I'm not saying I'm for those over open source licenses in general, but Prusa brought up some fair questions when discussing the OCL. Essentially: define "personal use." Have I violated a non-commercial license if I print this keyboard and then use it to build someone a website? Does CC-NC mean a Prusacaster -- or any guitar knob with such a license for that matter -- is strictly barred from being taken on tour? Or used to record albums that are then sold? (And I say "guitar" knob, but I'm choosing an example a little consciously that could exist in any variety of controls, instrument and otherwise.)
Where are the lines of that when it's physical things? How far downstream does that go if it isn't CC-NC-SA in particular?
I'm not really sure that Creative Commons had the idea of physical production in mind, given that it dates back to a time when we were more broadly talking about digital piracy, and I honestly haven't kept up with its evolution much in more recent years. But maybe it just doesn't make the same sense for designs of physical things, for comparable reasons to why it wouldn't make sense for code -- and, conversely, open source projects that opt to use CC licenses for assets.
(None of this would stop me from attempting to build/mod one for fun, mind you. It just raises what a more averse person might call risks, and what I will at least call curiosities.)
Not a lawyer, but as I understand it the license is a matter of copyright, and the copyright only applies to the design files. So as long as you're making that keyboard for yourself then you should be good to do anything you want with the keyboard, because it is no longer using the license at that point.
Now, what is interesting is if someone were to blatantly violate the license and start manufacturing commercial keyboards. I believe their only recourse would be to revoke their license of the design files, and then it would be copyright infringement. The thing is, I don't know how copyright law would handle any damages.
I don't know if making a physical product could be a violation of copyright, regardless of if you had a license to use the design in the first place. I could definitely imagine a company trying to enforce this, and a judge throwing it out because it should have been handled with patents.
Again, not a lawyer, just speculating on a forum.
> Not a lawyer, but as I understand it the license is a matter of copyright, and the copyright only applies to the design files. So as long as you're making that keyboard for yourself then you should be good to do anything you want with the keyboard, because it is no longer using the license at that point.
What if I take the design, print it, include the thing in a staged photo, and sell prints of the photo?
What if I skip the printing and use the design files as a basis for a rendered photo or animation?
What if I print the design, then use a 3D scanner to recreate a file from the physical artifact?
Not a lawyer either, but:
> What if I take the design, print it, include the thing in a staged photo, and sell prints of the photo?
Probably fair use, provided the design wasn't the main focus of the photo, but merely part of the "set dressing."
> What if I skip the printing and use the design files as a basis for a rendered photo or animation?
> What if I print the design, then use a 3D scanner to recreate a file from the physical artifact?
Those questions are simpler - both scenarios would be derivative works of the original files, so covered by the license.
> What if I take the design, print it, include the thing in a staged photo, and sell prints of the photo?
This is probably acceptable
> What if I skip the printing and use the design files as a basis for a rendered photo or animation?
This is probably NOT acceptable
> What if I print the design, then use a 3D scanner to recreate a file from the physical artifact?
If you used that for personal things yes that would be acceptable. I do not think that would give you the right to then sell that as a product neither digitally nor phsically
You're asking some pretty niche copyright questions that even a lawyer would have to spend time searching for case law for. It may be more expedient to look for that case law yourself.
If you need to be an attorney to figure out if you're allowed to take a picture of something, we've already jumped the shark.
Not what he asked.
What if I print the design, then use a 3D scanner to recreate a file from the physical artifact?
Hmm, without patents it would definitely be fine to scan an existing one and recreate it. I think this would be fine too, but any time you are clearly going out of your way to skirt the law is a red flag. The thing is, I don't even think technical designs are copyrightable outside of their aesthetic value.
What if I take the design, print it, include the thing in a staged photo, and sell prints of the photo?
What if I skip the printing and use the design files as a basis for a rendered photo or animation?
If it is indeed covered by copyright, then these would likely be violations, though I guess it depends on how prominent it is in the staged photo.
...this stuff is fun to think about.
Hasn’t Creative Commons disavowed or at least really downplayed the NC license for exactly these reasons? There are so many ambiguities and headaches involved that the only advice I’ve ever seen is not to use it.
I'd love to see more info on this
Likewise, I was unaware of this (and still see it in use regularly, especially on places like Printables as I've recently gotten my hands on a printer myself)
A Keychron has always been a great introduction for friends that want a good home desk setup without too much fuss.
I have stuck with the System76 Launch keyboard but I basically always consider Keychron first when looking.
I'd consider another Keychron (my first mechanical since a couple of AT and PS/2 Model M and variant devices I had years and years ago) and I like some stuff about it and definitely like the price, but would look for a model with a few differences next time and probably skip Keychron if I couldn't get all of these fixed in one of their boards:
1 - Longer battery life (I have a bluetooth + plug-in model). The battery life is crazy-low, even when not in use and the lights are turned off. I keep it plugged in all the time, as a result. I don't really get why it can't last, idle, about as long as a game controller does (many weeks! And those don't have much space for batteries).
2 - No light pattern button. That thing exists only to accidentally hit and switch it away from "gently and evenly lit" which is one of the very-few non-insane patterns available. Brush it by accident, there goes a minute or so of your time getting it back to something that's not trying to look like a disco ball. And it's right on the corner, so you will hit it by accident when moving the keyboard around or reaching for something just past it. Easily my least-favorite thing about the board, despite how bad the next item is.
3 - Mine has a kind of tray-design around the edge, resulting in about a 1/8" lip, that looks very cheap to assemble (so that's nice, lower price) but means it collects EVERYTHING out of the air and is a pain in the ass to clean. It also makes it look kinda like someone's 3D printed hobby project. Like it's an ugly keyboard, both because of the design and because it's visibly collecting dust and hair just a few days after its last keys-removed full cleaning.
You can remap/disable all light shortcuts using web app https://launcher.keychron.com/#/keymap
I have a K2, and you can lock the lights with some key combination I don't remember and am too lazy to look up.
I have their Q60, which is a retro-themed HHKB layout 60% board. Paired with a set of beige-Mac-themed MT3 Extended 2048 keycaps, out of my collection it's one of my favorites and sees some of the most use. It goes head to head with pricier one-off hobbyist boards.
I wonder how suitable these CAD files would be for either CNCing or resin-printing a translucent fruit-colored plastic case for a different flavor of retro. That'd be really cool.
MT3 really is a fantastic profile.
Both variants are great but I'm particularly fond of the PBT version. The slightly rough/matte texture that doesn't wear away easily and exaggerated dome shapes are sublime to use.
What's so special about these designs that makes it copyrightable? The keyboards in the image look very much like any other keyboard I've seen.
Novelty is irrelevant to copyright. You are probably thinking of patents or trade marks.
Wooting has done this already for many years: https://github.com/WootingKb/wooting-design
I still use my K2, which I bought in 2019 from Kickstarter, non-stop. What a piece of hardware! I have no plans to switch and will use it until it dissolves, which doesn’t seem to be happening in the next decade or so
The Keychron K4/related (K4 HE here) compact 96% layout is definitely my favorite keyboard layout. Just a solid brick of keys.
The HE keyboards are really great. I have been using the K10 HE for a year and it's the best keyboard I've used.
Why do you like rhe 96% layout? I prefer the full space, recently upgraded to a Q6 Ultra, I’m really happy I can get a wireless version of most of their models these days.
Wider keyboards (with the space for arrow keys and number keys to the right) put extra strain on your right shoulder when you use the mouse in your right hand.
I've been using a narrow keyboard and ergonomic mouse for 2 weeks, and my shoulder pain is starting to go away.
I put a number pad on the left and it's much easier to key in numbers with my left hand instead of using my mouse with my left hand.
Second this. I was skeptical because I thought I was attached to the "heft" of a full layout, but the 96% is the best of both worlds.
Keychron just open-sourced their design files, which I didn’t expect.
I’m a happy user of their keyboards.
Not open source or open hardware, which they are pretty clear about.
> This project is source-available. Personal and educational use is allowed, and commercial use is allowed for compatible accessories. You may not copy and sell Keychron keyboards or mice [...].
It's awesome if you mod your own gear, and 3d printing / one off part services are ubiquitous, so if you see something you like online, it's cheap and easy to do little upgrades.
More companies should do what they do - the less ethical players are already cloning knockoffs anyways, stuff like this builds brand loyalty and probably makes it more likely that people stick with Keychron over going for the knockoffs.
Hah, I just bought the Q6. Seeing they released their design spec makes me much happier with the purchase!
I bought one too - most heavy and heavy duty keyboard I have ever owned.
I wanted to use it but it has one fatal flaw - the backlighting is unusable.
The keys it comes with are decent, but opaque, so the backlight doesn't actually illuminate the keys. And if you get shine-through keycaps, the LEDs are mounted below the center of the key instead of above, and you don't get good illumination.
sigh.
I used to use topre realforce rgb, then tried keychron, now use steelseries apex pro exclusively.
if they could fix it, giving me illuminated shine-through keys, I would go back to stay.
I love the design for the ergonomic mouse. Are there any plans for split keyboard or something Corne style?
"Production-grade hardware design files... Study real CAD... Learn from how real products are built... STEP"
I'm sorry, I hate to be that guy, but while STEP files are often used as the final export to the contract manufacturer to cut the molds, or for some level of fit checking, they're not used for anything else. The real engineering that you can actually learn from is in the SolidWorks (or equivalent) part files, and you'll note that they're not offering those.
Love my Keychron Q1 Max. Awesome to see them open source their design files.
I have an IBM Model M, but after prolonged sessions of coding, my finger joints are aching. Are these Keychron keyboard have better switches or what are the experience using these mechanical ones?
Some would call buckling spring style (which inm keyboard use) surperiour to all the mx style switches. It is definitly on the more tactile end, so having aches doesnt surpise me. The variety in MX switches is bonkers. A well known switch collector called Theramingoat has over 4000 different ones. So if you get a hotswap board (keychron is not a bad place to start, but you can find better value-board for the same money nowadays), you can definitely find a switch of your liking. Check out milktooth, you can get a sample pack of different switches to try. And return the ones you dont like.
I've had three keyboards with red switches, two from Ducky that were Cherry switches and one from Lenovo that may be another company's switches, but feel the same. None failed on their own but I spilled drinks on the first two and they were never the same. Maybe check out some of the lighter switches, even reds are way lighter than my old 1990s model M. https://www.cherry.de/en-gb/products/switches
I can give a third vote to the rough comparison between a keyboard with brown switches, and a Model M. I've got both, and like both.
Quite likely - the buckling spring switches in Model M are quite stiff as far as keyboards go. Brown switches are a good choice if you want a light switch with some amount of tactility.
There is (deliberately) not much consistency or uniformity on the switches in mechanical because keyboard nerds are such a picky bunch. I got the Keychron Q11 specifically because the switches could be changed out. I replaced the Brown switches it came with with some "Zilent V2" switches with a much higher activation force.
It can be a dangerous rabbit hole if you let it, but if you're just looking for an approximation of the Model M but that requires less force, then something with "Brown" switches might be up your alley. This one in particular has a similar aesthetic, comes with Brown switches as an option, and at a pretty good price.
https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-c2-pro-8k-qmk-via...
The only problems I have with the Q6 Max are:
- It's way, way too heavy. Heavier than my Northgate Omnikey Ultra. Like it's more adept as an improvised weapon as much as any keyboard ever was.
- Didn't come with all black enter and escape caps (they were red orange), requiring purchasing an expensive complete replacement set.
Minor areas for improvement:
~ Battery life could be better.
~ Charging takes a long time and I'm unsure if there's a charge finished indicator.
~ Would be nice to have an offline flash update & macro programmer to not depend on cloud-based software that will eventually evaporate like everything else.
I do like:
+ Replaceability of switches as I've tried a bunch, settling on Kailh Box White V2.
+ RGB effects can be turned off completely or show a solid color at low brightness.
+ Native USB proprietary wireless dongle, BT with 3 profiles, or wired.
+ Wired or wireless connection while charging.
+ PC vs. Mac layout as a physical switch.
Can't speak much to most of your complaints (I like my keyboard heavy, planned to change all the keycaps and switches, and didn't get a wireless keyboard), but you can download an offline version of Via to configure it. https://github.com/the-via/releases/releases
Oh, does this involve their questionable kickstarter units with the cheap knockoff keys they refused to warranty or support, but were known faulty, and they swiftly replaced in store in the first 6 months? The ones that are pin incompatible with any other standard keys so you cant replace them? Yknow, the ones that mean I will never buy or recommend a keychron kb again?
The list of model numbers is clearly stated in the repo README and you’re apparently a subject matter expert on this; so, please look up the answer to your question and let us know.
No it's design files. Like CAD stuff.
Pretty sure @jhogendorn was being tongue-in-cheek to call out (semi-related) questionable behavior from Keychron.
I know, but given the subject of the OP it was an irrelevant garbage comment from a jilted user trying to smear the company. It deserves an equally obtuse response.