Before you spend many thousands of dollars on a machine better suited to a coffee shop, consider getting a minimalist lever machine.
I have (and love) my little Cafelat Robot [1]. It is small, draws no electricity, and relies upon my practiced hands to push preheated water through the coffee puck. There is nothing to get between me and the experience of making great espresso. I can feel the pressure, I can hear the stream of espresso, I can effortlessly adjust the flow in response to what the extraction is telling my senses.
Instead of a button press, pulling a shot is now a tactile experience that engages the senses. When the pull is done, I am primed to enjoy the results.
Yes, before getting an expensive commercial-style machine, consider what’s on the other end of the spectrum. Full manual has its benefits, both practical and aesthetic.
Plus, the money you will save will let you buy a better grinder. And that makes all the difference.
If a lever machine is too finicky for you, consider an espresso machine that is actually made for home use. Now I don't mean things like Rancilio Silva and other mini machines that are actually fairly crippled because they don't allow you to adjust the pressure, but a proper one.
AFAIK (but it's been a few years since I researched this) there are exactly two: the Profitec Go and the Lelit Victoria. Both are small(ish) and warm up quickly, unlike machines intended for professional use like the La Mazocco. The difference between the two is that the Profitec has the pressure adjustment on the outside while the Lelit requires you to open the machine up. However, adjusting the pressure is mostly a one-time affair, so that's not much of a problem.
Like all machines intended for home use neither will let you (easily) pull a shot and steam milk simultaneously, because they have only one reservoir and the temperature for pulling a shot is different from the temperature for steaming. You can get simple, cheap, milk frothing devices, however, which work pretty well.
(all of this is assuming you already have a good grinder and decent coffee, which is, as everyone else said, much more important).
A good machine will always need time to heat up since the temperature stability, which is very important for getting good espresso shots, correlates with the weight of the device. For most machines this means 30-45 min or so no matter what the manufacturer is saying and in practice this isn't much of a problem once you plug the machine through a smart plug which you can program to turn on the device before you're getting up in the morning.
Secondly, adjusting pressure is almost a completely unnecessary feature so I'm not sure why do you chose to point that out as a major differentiator. 9 bars is just fine. In similar category goes the PID for adjusting the temperature. While on the paper it sounds cool in reality you will not use them 99% of the time. There's many prosumer machines which don't allow you neither of those and are still perfectly fine machines.
Do you know what is it that it allows for such a quick warm up? Small boiler? Saturated group? Maybe my comment is more relatable to HX machines then although I don't quite get how is it possible to warm up so quickly - the machine is still a 20kg piece and you can't beat physics with such large thermal mass.
I have a Lelit Elizabeth. It’s a dual-boiler machine, so you can pull a shot and steam milk at the same time. If you want consistently good coffee without going too far down the espresso-nerd rabbit hole, it hits a nice sweet spot, especially if you’re into flat whites.
I didn't expect these prices! Think I'll stay with my Bambino which cost me a third (and does a _much_ better coffee than my parents' horrid DeLonghi Dedica) but good to know these exist.
If you, like me, are not a baby cow and don’t drink milk I can recommend the ECM Puristika. It’s a tiny, single-boiler E61 that’s just purely for making espresso (no steam wand, no hot water spout). Heats up in about 15 minutes.
They linked to the manual page, if you go to the root of the site, there's a link to a different domain which is the "Official authorised online store for all Cafelat items."
I would like to give a strong counterexample to that. I got a Flair 58 lever machine which on the one hand is a beautifully engineered machine (connected to a trash power supply that feels like it stepped out of the 90s but that's another story).
However, it's not the machine for me. I got it when I was deeply getting into coffee, and I'm coming from a scientific background so I wanted to do proper testing of my extractions. That's not really possible with a lever machine. Shots are inherently not reproducible, it's very difficult to get the same pressure from one shot to the next, even with the pressure gauge.
If that doesn't bother you and you're just happy to get decent espresso from a beautiful looking machine, then absolutely go for a lever machine.
But if you have scientific tendencies, if you want to properly test and compare flavors between between and brew ratios, it's not for you.
A prosumer electric machine will give you way more consistent results, although you won't be able to adjust pressure you'll still be able to adjust everything else.
And of course, if you want to steam milk then a lever machine can't do that either.
Well, I have good news and I have bad news for you, and they're the same thing:
An electric machine (other than the Decent) is not any more reproducible in terms of the outcome of the shot than a manual lever, and in many ways they're less reproducible. The reason is that the actual pressure the water is under is not the important thing, the important part of coffee extraction is how that water is flowing through the puck.
Due to just random happenstance configurations that the puck can settle into, applying the same pressure every time will not result in the same extraction every time. Someone skilled with a lever and who is used to knows what it feels like when a shot flows too fast or too slow can adjust the pressure on the fly to compensate, improving consistency.
Not really a meaningful comparison because you haven't defined how much of a temperature difference versus how much of a water flow difference we're talking about here. But for most people, at least if they take the most basic level of care to not use water at like 85 degrees or 110 degrees, then no, that's just not really true.
There's a lot of folklore out there that's lingered from the early 2000s espresso community where it was widely believed that temperature was the holy grail control parameter, but now with modern instrumentation and temperature probes, it's been pretty much debunked. Temperature stability throughout a shot makes almost zero perceivable difference in taste.
It takes brew temperature differences swings of around 5 degrees Celsius before people can start to notice any difference better than random chance, and almost a 10 degree brew temperature difference before it gets to the territory of 'ruining a shot'.
Meanwhile, very small differences in puck preparation, including micron-differences in grind size, or sub-gram-level differences in coffee quantity have profound differences in flow rate, which has a very strong affect on coffee extraction levels, which has immediately recognizable differences in the produced flavours that a trained palette can reliably detect. This is before we even start talking about channeling which has an enormous affect on the coffee.
Manual control of the applied pressure can and does allow skilled people to compensate for those differences in flow rate, and combined with very basic attention to brew temperature, does help shot consistency.
So much bs that I don't even want to go further into discussion, sorry. I say this as someone who has made several thousands of espressos on E61 group machine. I'll let you have your own opinion but anyone who has made more than a few espressos will immediately understand if and when the temperature drifted away. Pressure? I've made espressos at 6 bars and 9 bars. Makes literally almost no impact or whatsoever. You're right though that 5 degrees Celsius is probably about the right minimum amount when the espresso starts to change in taste, and there's remarkably many machines which cannot sustain the temperature in shot after shot workloads.
I agree but for different reasons. As a hardcore light/ultralight roast coffee nerd, I often recommend 'soup shots' over espresso. I've never owned an espresso setup, but the "soup shots" I've pulled with a $45 oxo brewer absolutely are in the ballpark of the best espresso shots I've had from the same roasts brewed with a traditional machine.
> Before you spend many thousands of dollars on a machine better suited to a coffee shop, consider getting a minimalist lever machine.
Agreed. I have a Pavoni Europiccola, and it's made approximately ~11,000 espresso shots (about half of those ended up as milk-based beverages). It makes excellent coffee, and I live in a place where there are a _lot_ of good coffee places around to compare to.
The maintenance is something I do myself, with a few small & inexpensive tools, and a few gaskets I need to replace. The machine will likely outlive me, which is a rare thing to say these days.
> Before you spend many thousands of dollars on a machine better suited to a coffee shop, consider getting a minimalist lever machine.
Nope. I agree about enjoyment factor but still: no. Unless you are single and don't like cappu's.
With lever machines it's going like this: you turn it on, wait few minutes, pull espresso... and it is too cold. You pull second and third and those can be good but by 4th espressos are too hot so they are bitter. So it is time to turn off your lever mini-espresso machine... And milk frothing ? n/c
Oh, and boiler size in "lever" machines :) La Pavoni Stradivari is 16... But what you do when boiler is empty ? You have solid piece of metal with temp 90-100 C, how you like to unscrewing and refiling it ? :) And then 5 minutes of warming it to 90's again...
Now cost... 1k up to 2k dollars for lever. So when "many starts" ? For 2k-3k you have more available machines then you want to choose from :>
And belive me: you _want_ a plumbed one. So we are almost in "commercial" territory, there is no way around it.
There are now new generations of "lab" espresso machines but usually they are not cheaper then plain e61. And still some Rancilio made tank is preferable - Epocas are dirt cheap, almost :)
But if someone want cheap coffee gear then Chemex or Hario v60 is perfect option. Perfect! We use it almost daily at home. Or few times a day. :) Almost same amount of ritual like with Robot :)
Full agree on grinders - better one makes difference.
So, 20 years of coffee forums reading in one sentence: espresso machines need to be heavy and they costs.
In secret I can tell: Stradi is still on my wish list :)
And then there is one thing even or maybe especially commercial shops avoid: actual good coffee. You need to pay 2x or 3x or more for 1kg of coffee beans or you just serving black slops. Some chemistry you dilute with milk. Look it is easy to one-time pay 5k for some chrome machine but every day paying for good coffee beans is beyond most coffee shops on the globe...
I have an espresso machine (or had, recently sold) as well as a moka pot as well as many other coffee making gadgets like a V60 and an Aeropress. They all make different types of coffee and are not comparable. Sometimes if you want true espresso you need to use an espresso machine.
Moka pots don't make espresso though. True espresso requires ~9 bars of pressure to make. Moka pots can create at max 1.5 bars (though optimally it would hover between 0.5 and 1 bar).
So while they make very good, rich, full-bodied coffee, it's just not espresso.
It may not be true espresso, but I will ask my Nona every day for an espresso made from her probably 30 year old bialetti. When I'm drinking Moka, it's more about the vibes anywho.
Except it's not so easy to get your hands on one these days. They are constantly out of stock. (IIRC they are basically now hand made by a guy out of the UK).
I get the appeal of manual levers to espresso enthusiasts but would strongly dissuade beginners from starting with one. When you are learning to dial in a shot what you want is consistency and reproducibility which is the opposite of what you get with a manual lever.
Also it doesn't steam milk so you need to figure out a separate solution for steaming if you want to make a flat white/cappuccino/latte/etc.
That's not to say you should dump thousands of dollars into a La Marzocco, but there are plenty of entry level machines in the $300-500 range that would suit a beginner just fine.
China and Japan made whole rituals and philosophy around serving tea and there is a difference between novice and adept in that. People really nerding out on espresso are just repeating an old trend.
The practical benefit is having basically zero parts.
We got a Flair manual espresso maker after our Gaggia Classic crapped out after a year (hard water buildup, probably). I de-scaled, replaced some parts, still didn't work.
You've got to disassemble the boiler and remove the scale from there. I run a Gaggia Classic at home with really hard water and my machine literally stopped flowing due to scale buildup. Once I fully pulled it apart and scraped all the scale out of the inside of the boiler it started running flawlessly.
Exact same thing happened to me, I sold the Gaggia and now I'm considering getting a manual one. The only issue is hot water as well as needing a separate steam wand, I wish there was an all in one solution for that.
They are fun but at the end of the day the deal breakers are "preheated water" and no steamed milk without more machines/gadgets. Kind of kills the entire point. That said, there are more advanced lever machines that have boilers built in.
Before spending money on a good grinder, make sure you have access to reasonable good quality / priced beans in your area! Otherwise your OPEX really starts to go through the roof for shipping coffee (At least my area)
Before making sure you have access to good beans (had to carry on with the theme), make sure you actually want to have "coffee" as another hobby in your life. Maybe it's worth it to outsource to your local cafe the machine maintenance, grind fine-tuning, bean recipes, hours learning milk steaming, hours spent on youtube, coffee forums, commenting in the occasional HN coffee-adjacent articles...
If good coffee is the goal and one doesn't insist specifically on espresso or having steamed milk, the humble pourover is a good starting point. The pourover funnel, filters, and a decent hand grinder are relatively inexpensive and, with only a little practice, the output is as good as any americano produced by the average barista at 1/5 the price per cup.
That's pretty much why I got a semiauto machine. Is it the best espresso ever? Probably not. But I can make lattes in my underwear on Saturday morning that are still better and cheaper than what I'd get at Starbucks. Scratches the itch without being as demanding as a hobby.
Before you buy beans, make sure you have good water first, as hard water can ruin coffee. There are literally products to demineralize water and also to add them back in for optimal water flavor for coffee.
Second this! I have a $300 Flair and a $3000 Expobar (Brewtus) and yet sometimes I feel like I pull more god shots from the Flair than the Brewtus. I now recommend Flairs to everyone
When I moved to Europe years ago from the USA I was trying to decide if I wanted an all-in-one or an old-style arm one like you link (they were bigger though with lots of brass and just one arm). I ultimately went with the all-in-one (with ceramic grinders) because I realized I was so tired of grinding my coffee, packing it in, waiting for the espresso maker to warm up, having to stand there while the pump runs (I know this step is different), take the filter off and empty the grounds... if I needed to make 5 coffees for guests it was a big long ordeal. But my Italian all-in-one is super convenient but expensive but worth it. It's been twenty years now and I had to services just once. Select what I want to make, go off to my computer to login while it grinds the coffee, makes the coffee, go pick it up. Simple.
For what it is worth, I realized that superautos could make good espresso when in Italy in 2000 and got consistently good shots from the commercial superautos used in autostrada plazas. But those machines were serious equipment. Most home superautos I've tried have had a hard time producing good shots. But it can be done.
I just overhauled a la marzocco sitting in my kitchen. People often inquire about whether it's worth buying an espresso machine for the home, or if it's a good investment as a coffee connoisseur.
My reply is always that it was the best money I've ever spent and the worst investment I've ever made. It's a lifestyle choice, and a questionable one at that. But one I'd make again every time given the opportunity.
We need a Vevor-style innovator to come in to the specialty appliances market. “Durable goods” needs a shot in the vein. Buy it for life washing machines and dryers that efficiently make clothes clean and are repairable, not an innovation engine or race to the bottom cost-cutting extravaganza.
People will buy a $500 espresso machine. They buy $300 water filters and dough mixers and dehydrators and on and on. Yes, it is a single-tasker but Starbucks requires a salary of $255K USD to enable a $7USD/day coffee habit.
I’ll teach myself to fish every time, given the option to buy a pole.
I love my La Marzocco Linea Micra. It’s exceptionally well-built and feels like an Apple product in its simplicity. The only downside is the app you have to use to use the programmed automated backflush.
But the user experience is remarkably simple. Turn the knob left to start the flow of water, turn the other way to stop. Move the dial to steam/froth milk. Fantastic default water pressure and even better tasting coffee. It’s a machine that will last a decade if not longer.
>The only downside is the app you have to use to use the programmed automated backflush.
Goddamnit, why the fuck can't we just have a machine that fucking does everything we need it to, on its own? An espresso machine requires a fucking app? Goddamnit.
Yes, I realize nothing about this comment is constructive.
You don’t actually have to use the app to backflush. You can just do it manually. The app is more convenient than flipping the lever a dozen times though.
I mean, my PSP from <20 years ago doesn't support WPA2 or 3 and therefore can't talk to my home wifi unless I made a hole for it.
But as we all know, Italian-made boutique home appliances are different. They have a rich history of having timely manufacturer-supplied technology updates provided as the decades press on.
We know this to be true, just as we know that sarcasm is a myth.
They must have machines that are not app-enabled right?
I sort of understand why their consumer machines would have that crap but I imagine that plenty of commercial places buying a $20k+ machine for a cafe that's supposed to run for 40 years would not accept having an app involved in maintenance.
Go into a service shop and see what they think of the computerised La Marsocco. Great coffee, amazing looking machine. But servicing…
I got awfully close to getting one then went for an e61. I’m very sure the coffee isn’t as good. I’m very sure the machine will have parts for a long time - it’s been 60 years so far.
Just bought a La Micra last year. Big factor was knowing I can get parts and service for life. I had a lesser known brand machine for almost 15 years, but at some point I couldn't get parts or anyone to work on it, so it died when the pump gasket failed.
I wasn't planning on buying one, but I'll add this to the list of app enabled coffee tech I refuse to buy. As someone who's blind I'm getting really tired of app enabled coffee equipment with no open source integrations or protocol documentation. Fellow also doesn't appear to make any effort to make there apps accessible. They have had there Aiden out for over a year and I still don't see any notes about accessibility in there app update. I'm not going to buy one and use the home assistant integration since that could break at any time. Luckily I'm more of a coffee drinker instead of espresso so the Ratio Four works well enough for single cups and half pots.
A decade seems good to you? We’re still just talking about heat and pressure, well-understood problems. There’s no excuse for a machine like this not to outlive the original owner. Anything else is planned obsolescence or a manufacturing defect.
Just upgraded to the Linea Mini after dreaming about it for almost 10 years - I actually used to have a two group ex-commercial machine in my kitchen that I got 15 years ago, so people are shocked when I tell them this machine was a big downsize from my old one!
Part of the reason I bought new is that they are so expensive on the second hand market here - so I’m not too worried that I’ll get most of my money back if I upgrade to something else in 10-15 years.
I’m going to overhaul the old commercial machine and will probably get a bit more than what I paid for it so not complaining!
I feel like this is where narrative/marketing does something independent of actual results. I mean, I'm sure a good engineer can figure out the fluid dynamics/pressures/seals/filtration reasonably easily.
A lot of the appeal of the older models, besides the brand name, is the beautiful design. It's like a functional work of art. As a brand that stood the test of time, LM's are also easy to restore too.
Yeah, you can get a cheaper machine, but it's not going to look as cool (this is subjective of course).
Vancouver also has a pretty nice La Marzocco showroom, the occasionally organize events, and can always go by to view the very nice machines and if you ask politely you'll get an amazing espresso
Somehow, the Bay Area, which is full of really rich coffee drinkers, doesn't have a La Marzocco showroom or even any big coffee equipment shop (Seattle Coffee Gear in Stanford shopping mall in Palo Alto closed a couple years ago).
I don't know about how the Italians say it, but in French, we would say "la La Marzocco" and it is normal. The first "la" means "the" and the second "La" is part of the name. The second "La" is capitalized but the first one is not.
Whatever the meaning of "La" is, it is part of the name, so it will stay. Same idea for surnames that start with "de", like Charles de Gaulle.
That's correct. In practice we would often rephrase to avoid the double 'la', not because it's grammatically incorrect but because it is awkward to read (less so in speech). Compare:
French: C'est une citation de De Gaulle.
German: Das ist ein Zitat von Von Neumann.
Both correct, but one would probably add "Charles" or "John" between the two 'de' or 'von' just to break them up.
Interesting, IME it's all beans. At my go-to place, the baristas are pretty bad but the two owners are super dedicated to roasting their own beans, you can always see them putting a lot of time and effort into it. Result is much better than places where the baristas are skilled but they use cheap pre-roasted bulk beans.
To take it to an extreme, I doubt the best barista in the world is going to get a good shot out of the default Starbucks beans. But maybe I'm wrong!
You're not wrong, bad beans are bad beans. But on the other hand, no matter how fancy single origin perfectly roasted beans you have, a crappy barista will most likely pull a terrible shot.
I’ve used cafetière off-and-on in the past but felt that I could never get the pressure high enough and the amount short enough. You’re saying that the Brikka produces enough pressure for an espresso? Is this something specific to the Brikka or will any Bialetti stovetop do? Can I use half or 1/3 as much water as you? Cafetière seem to have a minimum lower bound but I like it short short.
It is specific to the Brikka. They put a pressure valve in the column. The coffee must reach a certain pressure before it starts to flow.
You may try whatever amount of water you want... just don't let it burn in place!
There is a subtle balancing act between the quantity of coffee in the basket (how much headspace you keep) and the amount of water ( a ratio of 10:1 with the coffee -- before making the coffee -- yields good results for me).
So ... if you put less water, that means less coffee... which means more empty space in the basket, which modifies the dynamics.
Pro tip: use as little heat as possible to get the water to a gentle boil. Otherwise you might burn the coffee in the basket. Bad.
Okay very interesting. Thanks for the detailed answer. I looked into it a bit more[1], it sounds like the valve is producing 1.5 bar. A very nice stovetop for a moka, but probably not a good fit for me.
Two different machines, they make very different coffee.
The brikka is exceptional, if you like espresso.
I have a Brikka "Induction" with a stainless steel machined bottom part. Today I looked and apparently they decided to skimp and only offer the aluminum (non induction compatible) version. Pity.
Since the thread is full of coffee enthusiasts: I recently stepped outside my espresso-only routine and started appreciating V60 and Origami pour-overs. It's been great realizing how much depth there is outside of espresso. Where does the rest of HN crowd land on pour-overs?
My espresso routine is a strong Americano made with two doubles and a little bit of water (I think I may get some hate for the Americano?). I like it, but it does take a little while to measure, grind, pull, clean, etc. If I don’t feel like going through the whole routine, then a strong V60 pour over is a great substitute. 25-30 grams of the same beans, fairly finely ground, at a 1:13-1:15 ratio works well. Not quite as rich or as pleasant a mouthfeel as the Americano, but good.
Try something like a Hario switch, it's an interesting blend of immersion and percolation brewing and you can even make different recipes that are unique to the combination of both, say 15 seconds immersion then flip the switch and 30 seconds of percolation.
Fruity Kenyans and Ethiopians by V60 or Chemex, classic Italian on the espresso machine, the way $deity intended. Acidic espresso is gross, but the juicy acidic coffees shine as pour-overs.
I use a Melitta pour over cone, a Baratza grinder, a kettle with a temp control, and a spoon. Once in a while, I'll get out the French press. Good coffee doesn't really need to be complicated. You just need decent fresh beans and a little care.
I like the idea of a no bypass brewer, like the ceado hoop. It's somewhat more efficient with coffee and more consistent, plus it doesn't benefit from any specific type of kettle or any type of technique. You just pour the water and wait. The shape prevents it from fitting on every mug/carafe, and that's annoying.
I've been eying a hario switch to try something new. The chemex gets marks from me for design & size when I need to make a big pot for guests.
If only hip cafes that get custom built ones knew how to pull an actual espresso shot.
New rule should be La Marzocco judges every barista on their skills before being able to flip a paddle, which requires a bespoke NFC card linked to their certification.
Yes I’m salty about the amount of aesthetic cafes that have no idea what to do about their coffee program because all they care about is being a hip third space.
One coffee shop near me (since closed) had a Group 3 Slayer paired with a Super Jolly (but they also didn't know how to pull a decent shot).
For those unfamiliar, Slayer is (imo the best) one of the top $$$ machines and pairing it with a budget grinder is a classic sign the owner doesn't know a thing about coffee. Often the grinder is more influential than the espresso machine.
And how I mention "Group 3" that means it has three brewing heads. They were using a ~$20-30k espresso machine paired with a run of the mill budget grinder.
> For those unfamiliar, Slayer is (imo the best) one of the top $$$ machines and pairing it with a budget grinder is a classic sign the owner doesn't know a thing about coffee.
The exception to that rule is Espresso Vivace in Seattle, with (at Capitol Hill location) a couple 3-group La Marzoccos at the bar and a collection of modded Niche Zeros on grinding duty. Nobody can accuse David Schomer[0] of "not knowing a thing about coffee".
Boy different world different meaning of "expensive." I'm opening a cafe in Jakarta and I'm thinking if I should get a used Super Jolly or something _cheaper_.
I was a bit confused, because I've only known of the old models. Apparently there's been a refresh and they're no longer a few hundred dollars. FWIW they were not using one of the new models, they were using an old model which would have been maybe a few hundred on the used market at the time.
It's kinda wild to look and see even the old models listing for double the price they used to.
The Super Jolly is fine, I have a used one at home that I’ve had for 15 years (which I use now with a Linea Mini that I just a couple of months ago) and get really good results.
The point is that investing in such a crazy expensive machine but not a much better grinder is really foolish, because the machine is going to be limited by the grinder so they may as well buy a machine that is 1/3 the price.
But really it sounds like 80% of the problem in the case tow OP is talking about still would have been the poor skills of the baristas, because they should still be able to pull very decent shots even with the mid-range grinder.
> New rule should be La Marzocco judges every barista on their skills before being able to flip a paddle, which requires a bespoke NFC card linked to their certification.
The same La Marzocco that puts fake paddles on their cheaper machines when whats there is really just a button?
In my anecdotal experience of reacting to “wow this espresso is good” it’s often been a Slayer machine. It’s been a rough indicator of where to get good coffee for me.
I tend to look at the grinder and also the choice of the beans (roast level, consistency, chips). As another commenter pointed out you do occasionally get places that will buy a super fancy machine but have no idea what to do with it.
It's rarer to spend loads on a fancy grinder if you don't know what you're doing.
La Marzocco has such brand recognition that a lot of newbie coffee shops would buy one, but people who buy a more niche commercial machine like a Slayer or a Synesso probably know what they are doing. Still, there's nothing wrong with the machine itself and there are plenty of really great coffee shops with a La Marzocco.
Unless your plan is to eliminate La Marzocco machines from the secondary market by rapidly buying up the old machines, at a substantial premium, and leasing all future machines I'm pretty sure you'd run into difficulty implementing any sort of mandatory certification requirement.
As unfeasible as the original post is, I do empathize. There is a trend of expensive coffee places spending all this money on everything but training the actual employees.
Dropped in to say this. The Marzoccos are good, but dang the Kees van der Westen are downright amazing... I know a lot of cafe owners who threw the Marzocco out and purchased a Kees and the espresso shot quality went through the roof.
Isn’t Kees van der Westen the ferrari of coffee machines?!
From TFA:
It’s why Sean Henry, the owner of Houndstooth Coffee in Dallas and Austin, Texas, was willing to drive across the state in 2009 to pick up a limited-edition La Marzocco machine that the company made in partnership with the Dutch designer Kees van der Westen.
No! I had this machine, the skeleton is made of iron (the black colored parts), it completely rusted away for me in a couple of years. Very bad design decision on Rancilio.
I moved on from the Sylvia a long time ago. I just love its story (made from the parts bin as a gift for suppliers).
The size is attractive and it’s a little monster in n terms of bang-for-buck. I made ~15k coffees on it and it had one cheap service before it was elevated to ‘The Shelf’ with an Atomic espresso maker.
I don’t have the plus, but the non plus still produces better espresso than I can get from the spots near me. As the proud owner of a 2008 Corolla, I approve.
The Dedelonri I bought in Vietnam for $20. It’s a Chinese fake of a budget machine. But it has insanely high pressure and produces way better coffee than anyone finds reasonable.
But secretly, I think it’s all just the super fresh high quality beans that you can buy in Vietnam. They cultivate a regional variant of arabica in their highlands. And even using a standard Bialetti Moca cup produces exceptional results with that coffee.
Italian design from some of these eras is unmatched. A new LMLM is beautiful, but even the budget home espresso machines from Gaggia used to take it more seriously. A Gaggia classic pro [0] that you can buy today looks clean but boring, but previous era Gaggia Baby [1] would look amazing on any countertop or even as an objet d'art. The lines of the Gaggia Espresso [2] are reminiscent of a Ferrari Testarossa.
GS3 3 times a day :) it’s got a timer to auto start every morning and the iPhone app is super convenient to switch on and pre heat the machine ..the Olympia is the Leica of espresso machines, beautiful but limited .. it’s really designed for Italian style espresso (dark roast) and even the Olympia grinder works best for dark roasts
Before you spend many thousands of dollars on a machine better suited to a coffee shop, consider getting a minimalist lever machine.
I have (and love) my little Cafelat Robot [1]. It is small, draws no electricity, and relies upon my practiced hands to push preheated water through the coffee puck. There is nothing to get between me and the experience of making great espresso. I can feel the pressure, I can hear the stream of espresso, I can effortlessly adjust the flow in response to what the extraction is telling my senses.
Instead of a button press, pulling a shot is now a tactile experience that engages the senses. When the pull is done, I am primed to enjoy the results.
Yes, before getting an expensive commercial-style machine, consider what’s on the other end of the spectrum. Full manual has its benefits, both practical and aesthetic.
Plus, the money you will save will let you buy a better grinder. And that makes all the difference.
[1] http://www.cafelat.com/robot.html
If a lever machine is too finicky for you, consider an espresso machine that is actually made for home use. Now I don't mean things like Rancilio Silva and other mini machines that are actually fairly crippled because they don't allow you to adjust the pressure, but a proper one.
AFAIK (but it's been a few years since I researched this) there are exactly two: the Profitec Go and the Lelit Victoria. Both are small(ish) and warm up quickly, unlike machines intended for professional use like the La Mazocco. The difference between the two is that the Profitec has the pressure adjustment on the outside while the Lelit requires you to open the machine up. However, adjusting the pressure is mostly a one-time affair, so that's not much of a problem.
Like all machines intended for home use neither will let you (easily) pull a shot and steam milk simultaneously, because they have only one reservoir and the temperature for pulling a shot is different from the temperature for steaming. You can get simple, cheap, milk frothing devices, however, which work pretty well.
(all of this is assuming you already have a good grinder and decent coffee, which is, as everyone else said, much more important).
A good machine will always need time to heat up since the temperature stability, which is very important for getting good espresso shots, correlates with the weight of the device. For most machines this means 30-45 min or so no matter what the manufacturer is saying and in practice this isn't much of a problem once you plug the machine through a smart plug which you can program to turn on the device before you're getting up in the morning.
Secondly, adjusting pressure is almost a completely unnecessary feature so I'm not sure why do you chose to point that out as a major differentiator. 9 bars is just fine. In similar category goes the PID for adjusting the temperature. While on the paper it sounds cool in reality you will not use them 99% of the time. There's many prosumer machines which don't allow you neither of those and are still perfectly fine machines.
La Marzocco Micra is up to temp in under 10 minutes and will stay there all day, it works very well indeed.
Do you know what is it that it allows for such a quick warm up? Small boiler? Saturated group? Maybe my comment is more relatable to HX machines then although I don't quite get how is it possible to warm up so quickly - the machine is still a 20kg piece and you can't beat physics with such large thermal mass.
I have a Lelit Elizabeth. It’s a dual-boiler machine, so you can pull a shot and steam milk at the same time. If you want consistently good coffee without going too far down the espresso-nerd rabbit hole, it hits a nice sweet spot, especially if you’re into flat whites.
Ascaso Steel Duo is an affordable compact machine with two PID controlled circuits and adjustable pressure.
Ah, didn't know about that one. Twice as expensive as the ones I mentioned, though.
>Profitec Go and the Lelit Victoria
I didn't expect these prices! Think I'll stay with my Bambino which cost me a third (and does a _much_ better coffee than my parents' horrid DeLonghi Dedica) but good to know these exist.
If you, like me, are not a baby cow and don’t drink milk I can recommend the ECM Puristika. It’s a tiny, single-boiler E61 that’s just purely for making espresso (no steam wand, no hot water spout). Heats up in about 15 minutes.
This is the first commercial website where i just couldnt find the price, neither the "buy" button ..
They linked to the manual page, if you go to the root of the site, there's a link to a different domain which is the "Official authorised online store for all Cafelat items."
The UK site has them out of stock, and about 350 quid.
So I won't be replacing my Aeropress or Bialetti pot with one this month.
I would like to give a strong counterexample to that. I got a Flair 58 lever machine which on the one hand is a beautifully engineered machine (connected to a trash power supply that feels like it stepped out of the 90s but that's another story).
However, it's not the machine for me. I got it when I was deeply getting into coffee, and I'm coming from a scientific background so I wanted to do proper testing of my extractions. That's not really possible with a lever machine. Shots are inherently not reproducible, it's very difficult to get the same pressure from one shot to the next, even with the pressure gauge.
If that doesn't bother you and you're just happy to get decent espresso from a beautiful looking machine, then absolutely go for a lever machine.
But if you have scientific tendencies, if you want to properly test and compare flavors between between and brew ratios, it's not for you.
A prosumer electric machine will give you way more consistent results, although you won't be able to adjust pressure you'll still be able to adjust everything else.
And of course, if you want to steam milk then a lever machine can't do that either.
Well, I have good news and I have bad news for you, and they're the same thing:
An electric machine (other than the Decent) is not any more reproducible in terms of the outcome of the shot than a manual lever, and in many ways they're less reproducible. The reason is that the actual pressure the water is under is not the important thing, the important part of coffee extraction is how that water is flowing through the puck.
Due to just random happenstance configurations that the puck can settle into, applying the same pressure every time will not result in the same extraction every time. Someone skilled with a lever and who is used to knows what it feels like when a shot flows too fast or too slow can adjust the pressure on the fly to compensate, improving consistency.
The temperature drifting is by far the largest factor in reproducing the espresso shots not the water flow.
Not really a meaningful comparison because you haven't defined how much of a temperature difference versus how much of a water flow difference we're talking about here. But for most people, at least if they take the most basic level of care to not use water at like 85 degrees or 110 degrees, then no, that's just not really true.
There's a lot of folklore out there that's lingered from the early 2000s espresso community where it was widely believed that temperature was the holy grail control parameter, but now with modern instrumentation and temperature probes, it's been pretty much debunked. Temperature stability throughout a shot makes almost zero perceivable difference in taste.
It takes brew temperature differences swings of around 5 degrees Celsius before people can start to notice any difference better than random chance, and almost a 10 degree brew temperature difference before it gets to the territory of 'ruining a shot'.
Meanwhile, very small differences in puck preparation, including micron-differences in grind size, or sub-gram-level differences in coffee quantity have profound differences in flow rate, which has a very strong affect on coffee extraction levels, which has immediately recognizable differences in the produced flavours that a trained palette can reliably detect. This is before we even start talking about channeling which has an enormous affect on the coffee.
Manual control of the applied pressure can and does allow skilled people to compensate for those differences in flow rate, and combined with very basic attention to brew temperature, does help shot consistency.
So much bs that I don't even want to go further into discussion, sorry. I say this as someone who has made several thousands of espressos on E61 group machine. I'll let you have your own opinion but anyone who has made more than a few espressos will immediately understand if and when the temperature drifted away. Pressure? I've made espressos at 6 bars and 9 bars. Makes literally almost no impact or whatsoever. You're right though that 5 degrees Celsius is probably about the right minimum amount when the espresso starts to change in taste, and there's remarkably many machines which cannot sustain the temperature in shot after shot workloads.
lol, the pressure gauge is the sole reason I get more god shots from my Flair!
Oh for sure, it's much better to have it than not.
I agree but for different reasons. As a hardcore light/ultralight roast coffee nerd, I often recommend 'soup shots' over espresso. I've never owned an espresso setup, but the "soup shots" I've pulled with a $45 oxo brewer absolutely are in the ballpark of the best espresso shots I've had from the same roasts brewed with a traditional machine.
I love light roast+ espresso, even better with a lever machine that can handle high pressure and a thin stream of coffee
> Before you spend many thousands of dollars on a machine better suited to a coffee shop, consider getting a minimalist lever machine.
Agreed. I have a Pavoni Europiccola, and it's made approximately ~11,000 espresso shots (about half of those ended up as milk-based beverages). It makes excellent coffee, and I live in a place where there are a _lot_ of good coffee places around to compare to.
The maintenance is something I do myself, with a few small & inexpensive tools, and a few gaskets I need to replace. The machine will likely outlive me, which is a rare thing to say these days.
> Before you spend many thousands of dollars on a machine better suited to a coffee shop, consider getting a minimalist lever machine.
Nope. I agree about enjoyment factor but still: no. Unless you are single and don't like cappu's.
With lever machines it's going like this: you turn it on, wait few minutes, pull espresso... and it is too cold. You pull second and third and those can be good but by 4th espressos are too hot so they are bitter. So it is time to turn off your lever mini-espresso machine... And milk frothing ? n/c
Oh, and boiler size in "lever" machines :) La Pavoni Stradivari is 16... But what you do when boiler is empty ? You have solid piece of metal with temp 90-100 C, how you like to unscrewing and refiling it ? :) And then 5 minutes of warming it to 90's again...
Now cost... 1k up to 2k dollars for lever. So when "many starts" ? For 2k-3k you have more available machines then you want to choose from :>
And belive me: you _want_ a plumbed one. So we are almost in "commercial" territory, there is no way around it.
There are now new generations of "lab" espresso machines but usually they are not cheaper then plain e61. And still some Rancilio made tank is preferable - Epocas are dirt cheap, almost :)
But if someone want cheap coffee gear then Chemex or Hario v60 is perfect option. Perfect! We use it almost daily at home. Or few times a day. :) Almost same amount of ritual like with Robot :)
Full agree on grinders - better one makes difference.
So, 20 years of coffee forums reading in one sentence: espresso machines need to be heavy and they costs.
In secret I can tell: Stradi is still on my wish list :)
And then there is one thing even or maybe especially commercial shops avoid: actual good coffee. You need to pay 2x or 3x or more for 1kg of coffee beans or you just serving black slops. Some chemistry you dilute with milk. Look it is easy to one-time pay 5k for some chrome machine but every day paying for good coffee beans is beyond most coffee shops on the globe...
I have the same and love it. Another bonus of the Cafelat is no microplastics in my hot coffee. :)
Or just get a Moka pot, which is what most Italians use at home anyway. You can get a decent one for $30-50.
I have an espresso machine (or had, recently sold) as well as a moka pot as well as many other coffee making gadgets like a V60 and an Aeropress. They all make different types of coffee and are not comparable. Sometimes if you want true espresso you need to use an espresso machine.
Moka pots don't make espresso though. True espresso requires ~9 bars of pressure to make. Moka pots can create at max 1.5 bars (though optimally it would hover between 0.5 and 1 bar).
So while they make very good, rich, full-bodied coffee, it's just not espresso.
Not to detract from your point but the Bialettis also let you make a great cafecito
It may not be true espresso, but I will ask my Nona every day for an espresso made from her probably 30 year old bialetti. When I'm drinking Moka, it's more about the vibes anywho.
But they make horrible coffee, and can by design only brew at the wrong temperature.
Except it's not so easy to get your hands on one these days. They are constantly out of stock. (IIRC they are basically now hand made by a guy out of the UK).
I get the appeal of manual levers to espresso enthusiasts but would strongly dissuade beginners from starting with one. When you are learning to dial in a shot what you want is consistency and reproducibility which is the opposite of what you get with a manual lever.
Also it doesn't steam milk so you need to figure out a separate solution for steaming if you want to make a flat white/cappuccino/latte/etc.
That's not to say you should dump thousands of dollars into a La Marzocco, but there are plenty of entry level machines in the $300-500 range that would suit a beginner just fine.
The simple fact that there are terms like "beginner" used in this conversation shows that y'all are overthinking it.
It is about having a good coffee, not a professional sport.
China and Japan made whole rituals and philosophy around serving tea and there is a difference between novice and adept in that. People really nerding out on espresso are just repeating an old trend.
The practical benefit is having basically zero parts.
We got a Flair manual espresso maker after our Gaggia Classic crapped out after a year (hard water buildup, probably). I de-scaled, replaced some parts, still didn't work.
You've got to disassemble the boiler and remove the scale from there. I run a Gaggia Classic at home with really hard water and my machine literally stopped flowing due to scale buildup. Once I fully pulled it apart and scraped all the scale out of the inside of the boiler it started running flawlessly.
https://greatinfusions.com/blog/great-infusions-coffee-blog/...
Would sound absurd to all but the nerdiest, most dedicated, but have you considered making your own water[0]?
[0] https://www.baristahustle.com/diy-water-recipes-the-world-in...
Or just buy bottled water. If you're only doing Espressi, a 1 liter bottle can take you a long way and comes in under 1 Euro.
For a daily thing like coffee I gotta set myself up for the most sustainable path or it feels like I'm accepting the waste
Very neat!
Exact same thing happened to me, I sold the Gaggia and now I'm considering getting a manual one. The only issue is hot water as well as needing a separate steam wand, I wish there was an all in one solution for that.
No milk though
They are fun but at the end of the day the deal breakers are "preheated water" and no steamed milk without more machines/gadgets. Kind of kills the entire point. That said, there are more advanced lever machines that have boilers built in.
>consider getting a minimalist lever machine
Before spending money on an espresso machine, make sure you have a good grinder first.
Before spending money on a good grinder, make sure you have access to reasonable good quality / priced beans in your area! Otherwise your OPEX really starts to go through the roof for shipping coffee (At least my area)
Before making sure you have access to good beans (had to carry on with the theme), make sure you actually want to have "coffee" as another hobby in your life. Maybe it's worth it to outsource to your local cafe the machine maintenance, grind fine-tuning, bean recipes, hours learning milk steaming, hours spent on youtube, coffee forums, commenting in the occasional HN coffee-adjacent articles...
If good coffee is the goal and one doesn't insist specifically on espresso or having steamed milk, the humble pourover is a good starting point. The pourover funnel, filters, and a decent hand grinder are relatively inexpensive and, with only a little practice, the output is as good as any americano produced by the average barista at 1/5 the price per cup.
That's pretty much why I got a semiauto machine. Is it the best espresso ever? Probably not. But I can make lattes in my underwear on Saturday morning that are still better and cheaper than what I'd get at Starbucks. Scratches the itch without being as demanding as a hobby.
Before you buy beans, make sure you have good water first, as hard water can ruin coffee. There are literally products to demineralize water and also to add them back in for optimal water flavor for coffee.
>make sure you have access to reasonable good quality / priced beans in your area
Why? In which country can't you buy high-quality hipster single-origin beans online?
Second this! I have a $300 Flair and a $3000 Expobar (Brewtus) and yet sometimes I feel like I pull more god shots from the Flair than the Brewtus. I now recommend Flairs to everyone
When I moved to Europe years ago from the USA I was trying to decide if I wanted an all-in-one or an old-style arm one like you link (they were bigger though with lots of brass and just one arm). I ultimately went with the all-in-one (with ceramic grinders) because I realized I was so tired of grinding my coffee, packing it in, waiting for the espresso maker to warm up, having to stand there while the pump runs (I know this step is different), take the filter off and empty the grounds... if I needed to make 5 coffees for guests it was a big long ordeal. But my Italian all-in-one is super convenient but expensive but worth it. It's been twenty years now and I had to services just once. Select what I want to make, go off to my computer to login while it grinds the coffee, makes the coffee, go pick it up. Simple.
What machine did you get?
For what it is worth, I realized that superautos could make good espresso when in Italy in 2000 and got consistently good shots from the commercial superautos used in autostrada plazas. But those machines were serious equipment. Most home superautos I've tried have had a hard time producing good shots. But it can be done.
> a tactile experience that engages the senses
> make sure you have a good grinder first
The mercurial success of Hot Dog on a Stick has taught us that the choices of uniform and workers are factors!
I just overhauled a la marzocco sitting in my kitchen. People often inquire about whether it's worth buying an espresso machine for the home, or if it's a good investment as a coffee connoisseur.
My reply is always that it was the best money I've ever spent and the worst investment I've ever made. It's a lifestyle choice, and a questionable one at that. But one I'd make again every time given the opportunity.
We need a Vevor-style innovator to come in to the specialty appliances market. “Durable goods” needs a shot in the vein. Buy it for life washing machines and dryers that efficiently make clothes clean and are repairable, not an innovation engine or race to the bottom cost-cutting extravaganza.
People will buy a $500 espresso machine. They buy $300 water filters and dough mixers and dehydrators and on and on. Yes, it is a single-tasker but Starbucks requires a salary of $255K USD to enable a $7USD/day coffee habit.
I’ll teach myself to fish every time, given the option to buy a pole.
I love my La Marzocco Linea Micra. It’s exceptionally well-built and feels like an Apple product in its simplicity. The only downside is the app you have to use to use the programmed automated backflush.
But the user experience is remarkably simple. Turn the knob left to start the flow of water, turn the other way to stop. Move the dial to steam/froth milk. Fantastic default water pressure and even better tasting coffee. It’s a machine that will last a decade if not longer.
>The only downside is the app you have to use to use the programmed automated backflush.
Goddamnit, why the fuck can't we just have a machine that fucking does everything we need it to, on its own? An espresso machine requires a fucking app? Goddamnit.
Yes, I realize nothing about this comment is constructive.
You don’t actually have to use the app to backflush. You can just do it manually. The app is more convenient than flipping the lever a dozen times though.
Oh, it's fine.
I mean, my PSP from <20 years ago doesn't support WPA2 or 3 and therefore can't talk to my home wifi unless I made a hole for it.
But as we all know, Italian-made boutique home appliances are different. They have a rich history of having timely manufacturer-supplied technology updates provided as the decades press on.
We know this to be true, just as we know that sarcasm is a myth.
They must have machines that are not app-enabled right?
I sort of understand why their consumer machines would have that crap but I imagine that plenty of commercial places buying a $20k+ machine for a cafe that's supposed to run for 40 years would not accept having an app involved in maintenance.
It’s bad.
Go into a service shop and see what they think of the computerised La Marsocco. Great coffee, amazing looking machine. But servicing…
I got awfully close to getting one then went for an e61. I’m very sure the coffee isn’t as good. I’m very sure the machine will have parts for a long time - it’s been 60 years so far.
Just bought a La Micra last year. Big factor was knowing I can get parts and service for life. I had a lesser known brand machine for almost 15 years, but at some point I couldn't get parts or anyone to work on it, so it died when the pump gasket failed.
I wasn't planning on buying one, but I'll add this to the list of app enabled coffee tech I refuse to buy. As someone who's blind I'm getting really tired of app enabled coffee equipment with no open source integrations or protocol documentation. Fellow also doesn't appear to make any effort to make there apps accessible. They have had there Aiden out for over a year and I still don't see any notes about accessibility in there app update. I'm not going to buy one and use the home assistant integration since that could break at any time. Luckily I'm more of a coffee drinker instead of espresso so the Ratio Four works well enough for single cups and half pots.
A decade seems good to you? We’re still just talking about heat and pressure, well-understood problems. There’s no excuse for a machine like this not to outlive the original owner. Anything else is planned obsolescence or a manufacturing defect.
Certainly like a apple in terms of price.
Just upgraded to the Linea Mini after dreaming about it for almost 10 years - I actually used to have a two group ex-commercial machine in my kitchen that I got 15 years ago, so people are shocked when I tell them this machine was a big downsize from my old one!
Part of the reason I bought new is that they are so expensive on the second hand market here - so I’m not too worried that I’ll get most of my money back if I upgrade to something else in 10-15 years.
I’m going to overhaul the old commercial machine and will probably get a bit more than what I paid for it so not complaining!
I feel like this is where narrative/marketing does something independent of actual results. I mean, I'm sure a good engineer can figure out the fluid dynamics/pressures/seals/filtration reasonably easily.
A lot of the appeal of the older models, besides the brand name, is the beautiful design. It's like a functional work of art. As a brand that stood the test of time, LM's are also easy to restore too.
Yeah, you can get a cheaper machine, but it's not going to look as cool (this is subjective of course).
If you're ever in Florence, Italy and love coffee (and La Marzocco) do yourself a favor and visit the museum https://lamarzocco.com/mktcenter/visit-us-in-italy/
Vancouver also has a pretty nice La Marzocco showroom, the occasionally organize events, and can always go by to view the very nice machines and if you ask politely you'll get an amazing espresso
Somehow, the Bay Area, which is full of really rich coffee drinkers, doesn't have a La Marzocco showroom or even any big coffee equipment shop (Seattle Coffee Gear in Stanford shopping mall in Palo Alto closed a couple years ago).
If you're ever in Seattle you can visit the La Marzocco US headquarters and actually try out their machines.
I actually hate coffee, but I go by their building every day and the machines are very impressive looking.
The very first words from TFA
>>> The La Marzocco
yeah yeah, I know it's the official machine name and it's another language and whatnot, but it just translate to "The The Marzocco"
I don't know about how the Italians say it, but in French, we would say "la La Marzocco" and it is normal. The first "la" means "the" and the second "La" is part of the name. The second "La" is capitalized but the first one is not.
Whatever the meaning of "La" is, it is part of the name, so it will stay. Same idea for surnames that start with "de", like Charles de Gaulle.
That's correct. In practice we would often rephrase to avoid the double 'la', not because it's grammatically incorrect but because it is awkward to read (less so in speech). Compare:
French: C'est une citation de De Gaulle.
German: Das ist ein Zitat von Von Neumann.
Both correct, but one would probably add "Charles" or "John" between the two 'de' or 'von' just to break them up.
"The Ferrari The Ferrari" comes to mind somehow.
I used to have a decent espresso machine at home, and try , from time to time, supposedly "barista quality" espressos from cafes around here.
I agree wholeheartedly with those who say the coffee beans, the grinder and the barista are more important than the machine.
Nowadays at home I use a very simple Bialetti Brikka with exactly 200 ml of water and 20 g of coffee. God shots every single time.
That's not espresso though. It makes good coffee, sure, but so does an Aeropress, they're not really comparable when one wants a true espresso.
Interesting, IME it's all beans. At my go-to place, the baristas are pretty bad but the two owners are super dedicated to roasting their own beans, you can always see them putting a lot of time and effort into it. Result is much better than places where the baristas are skilled but they use cheap pre-roasted bulk beans.
To take it to an extreme, I doubt the best barista in the world is going to get a good shot out of the default Starbucks beans. But maybe I'm wrong!
You're not wrong, bad beans are bad beans. But on the other hand, no matter how fancy single origin perfectly roasted beans you have, a crappy barista will most likely pull a terrible shot.
Beans can't compensate for the lack of skill.
That can't really be called a shot anymore tho, you're not even in a lungo territory if you're pulling a 200ml shot.
Or do you mean an Americano? Are you adding water afterwards?
> 200ml shot
It's not an espresso.
Americano? I would not touch that with a ten-foot pole.
No... no water. The Brikka has a pressure valve and the 200 ml of water yield about 125-150 ml of coffee.
You might call it a double lungo, but with a bit of crema (yep) and no acidity or sour taste. Just sweet coffee with nice chocolate notes.
I use coffee beans from Papua New Guinea, roasted locally at the coffee shop.
I’ve used cafetière off-and-on in the past but felt that I could never get the pressure high enough and the amount short enough. You’re saying that the Brikka produces enough pressure for an espresso? Is this something specific to the Brikka or will any Bialetti stovetop do? Can I use half or 1/3 as much water as you? Cafetière seem to have a minimum lower bound but I like it short short.
It is specific to the Brikka. They put a pressure valve in the column. The coffee must reach a certain pressure before it starts to flow.
You may try whatever amount of water you want... just don't let it burn in place!
There is a subtle balancing act between the quantity of coffee in the basket (how much headspace you keep) and the amount of water ( a ratio of 10:1 with the coffee -- before making the coffee -- yields good results for me).
So ... if you put less water, that means less coffee... which means more empty space in the basket, which modifies the dynamics.
Pro tip: use as little heat as possible to get the water to a gentle boil. Otherwise you might burn the coffee in the basket. Bad.
In short, you will have to experiment...
Okay very interesting. Thanks for the detailed answer. I looked into it a bit more[1], it sounds like the valve is producing 1.5 bar. A very nice stovetop for a moka, but probably not a good fit for me.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Coffee/comments/15zabe/does_the_bia...
How do you like the brikka vs the classic?
Two different machines, they make very different coffee.
The brikka is exceptional, if you like espresso.
I have a Brikka "Induction" with a stainless steel machined bottom part. Today I looked and apparently they decided to skimp and only offer the aluminum (non induction compatible) version. Pity.
Since the thread is full of coffee enthusiasts: I recently stepped outside my espresso-only routine and started appreciating V60 and Origami pour-overs. It's been great realizing how much depth there is outside of espresso. Where does the rest of HN crowd land on pour-overs?
I've been doing espresso for years and just mixed it up with a V60 this year as well. My favorite right now is Japanese iced pour over.
My espresso routine is a strong Americano made with two doubles and a little bit of water (I think I may get some hate for the Americano?). I like it, but it does take a little while to measure, grind, pull, clean, etc. If I don’t feel like going through the whole routine, then a strong V60 pour over is a great substitute. 25-30 grams of the same beans, fairly finely ground, at a 1:13-1:15 ratio works well. Not quite as rich or as pleasant a mouthfeel as the Americano, but good.
Try something like a Hario switch, it's an interesting blend of immersion and percolation brewing and you can even make different recipes that are unique to the combination of both, say 15 seconds immersion then flip the switch and 30 seconds of percolation.
Fruity Kenyans and Ethiopians by V60 or Chemex, classic Italian on the espresso machine, the way $deity intended. Acidic espresso is gross, but the juicy acidic coffees shine as pour-overs.
I use a Melitta pour over cone, a Baratza grinder, a kettle with a temp control, and a spoon. Once in a while, I'll get out the French press. Good coffee doesn't really need to be complicated. You just need decent fresh beans and a little care.
I like the idea of a no bypass brewer, like the ceado hoop. It's somewhat more efficient with coffee and more consistent, plus it doesn't benefit from any specific type of kettle or any type of technique. You just pour the water and wait. The shape prevents it from fitting on every mug/carafe, and that's annoying.
I've been eying a hario switch to try something new. The chemex gets marks from me for design & size when I need to make a big pot for guests.
If only hip cafes that get custom built ones knew how to pull an actual espresso shot.
New rule should be La Marzocco judges every barista on their skills before being able to flip a paddle, which requires a bespoke NFC card linked to their certification.
Yes I’m salty about the amount of aesthetic cafes that have no idea what to do about their coffee program because all they care about is being a hip third space.
One coffee shop near me (since closed) had a Group 3 Slayer paired with a Super Jolly (but they also didn't know how to pull a decent shot).
For those unfamiliar, Slayer is (imo the best) one of the top $$$ machines and pairing it with a budget grinder is a classic sign the owner doesn't know a thing about coffee. Often the grinder is more influential than the espresso machine.
And how I mention "Group 3" that means it has three brewing heads. They were using a ~$20-30k espresso machine paired with a run of the mill budget grinder.
> For those unfamiliar, Slayer is (imo the best) one of the top $$$ machines and pairing it with a budget grinder is a classic sign the owner doesn't know a thing about coffee.
The exception to that rule is Espresso Vivace in Seattle, with (at Capitol Hill location) a couple 3-group La Marzoccos at the bar and a collection of modded Niche Zeros on grinding duty. Nobody can accuse David Schomer[0] of "not knowing a thing about coffee".
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Schomer
Boy different world different meaning of "expensive." I'm opening a cafe in Jakarta and I'm thinking if I should get a used Super Jolly or something _cheaper_.
I was a bit confused, because I've only known of the old models. Apparently there's been a refresh and they're no longer a few hundred dollars. FWIW they were not using one of the new models, they were using an old model which would have been maybe a few hundred on the used market at the time.
It's kinda wild to look and see even the old models listing for double the price they used to.
The Super Jolly is fine, I have a used one at home that I’ve had for 15 years (which I use now with a Linea Mini that I just a couple of months ago) and get really good results.
The point is that investing in such a crazy expensive machine but not a much better grinder is really foolish, because the machine is going to be limited by the grinder so they may as well buy a machine that is 1/3 the price.
But really it sounds like 80% of the problem in the case tow OP is talking about still would have been the poor skills of the baristas, because they should still be able to pull very decent shots even with the mid-range grinder.
> New rule should be La Marzocco judges every barista on their skills before being able to flip a paddle, which requires a bespoke NFC card linked to their certification.
The same La Marzocco that puts fake paddles on their cheaper machines when whats there is really just a button?
In my anecdotal experience of reacting to “wow this espresso is good” it’s often been a Slayer machine. It’s been a rough indicator of where to get good coffee for me.
I tend to look at the grinder and also the choice of the beans (roast level, consistency, chips). As another commenter pointed out you do occasionally get places that will buy a super fancy machine but have no idea what to do with it. It's rarer to spend loads on a fancy grinder if you don't know what you're doing.
100%, I just don’t have an eye yet for commercial grinders :)
La Marzocco has such brand recognition that a lot of newbie coffee shops would buy one, but people who buy a more niche commercial machine like a Slayer or a Synesso probably know what they are doing. Still, there's nothing wrong with the machine itself and there are plenty of really great coffee shops with a La Marzocco.
Totally, I meant no shade to LaMarzocco. They’re some of my favorite looking machines too :)
Unless your plan is to eliminate La Marzocco machines from the secondary market by rapidly buying up the old machines, at a substantial premium, and leasing all future machines I'm pretty sure you'd run into difficulty implementing any sort of mandatory certification requirement.
As unfeasible as the original post is, I do empathize. There is a trend of expensive coffee places spending all this money on everything but training the actual employees.
All that effort to serve lemon juice. Sigh...
Isn’t Kees van der Westen the ferrari of coffee machines?!
Dropped in to say this. The Marzoccos are good, but dang the Kees van der Westen are downright amazing... I know a lot of cafe owners who threw the Marzocco out and purchased a Kees and the espresso shot quality went through the roof.
Do you know what's the difference between the two? Building an espresso machine isn't exactly a science.
That's more like the Spyker of coffee machines. Incidentally I went to a random coffee shop that had a Speedster in it. It was great.
Isn’t Kees van der Westen the ferrari of coffee machines?!
From TFA:
It’s why Sean Henry, the owner of Houndstooth Coffee in Dallas and Austin, Texas, was willing to drive across the state in 2009 to pick up a limited-edition La Marzocco machine that the company made in partnership with the Dutch designer Kees van der Westen.
So... what is the Corolla of espresso machines?
I bought a Sage (Breville) Barista Pro a month before the first lockdown. It was pricey but was one of the best purchases I've ever done.
Still works exactly the same and it's what makes me want to get up from the bed even on Mondays.
The Rancilio Silvia.
https://coffeegeek.com/reviews/firstlooks/rancilio-silvia-pr...
No! I had this machine, the skeleton is made of iron (the black colored parts), it completely rusted away for me in a couple of years. Very bad design decision on Rancilio.
100% stainless steel or bust.
Yeah, that corner rust is a pita. They all do it. I’d put rust converter on it.
“They all do it” - all rancilio silva, not every coffee machine.
Thought to add that context for people unfamiliar with coffee machines.
Good machine, and you can upgrade it with a PID.
And you will have enough money left over to get a great grinder.
I am being told by my local coffee geeks that it's Gaggia
I moved on from the Sylvia a long time ago. I just love its story (made from the parts bin as a gift for suppliers). The size is attractive and it’s a little monster in n terms of bang-for-buck. I made ~15k coffees on it and it had one cheap service before it was elevated to ‘The Shelf’ with an Atomic espresso maker.
I've bought Corollas for less than that ...
I’ve sold Carollas for less.
But, the milage you’ll get on a Sylvia is higher.
My Breville Bambino Plus was cheap and produces a pretty reliable shot.
I don’t have the plus, but the non plus still produces better espresso than I can get from the spots near me. As the proud owner of a 2008 Corolla, I approve.
Gaggia Classic Pro, modded with Gagguino or Gaggimate. Only downside - single boiler.
Prone to scale easily though, I sold mine and planning on getting a manual lever machine as mentioned in another top comment.
The Dedelonri I bought in Vietnam for $20. It’s a Chinese fake of a budget machine. But it has insanely high pressure and produces way better coffee than anyone finds reasonable.
But secretly, I think it’s all just the super fresh high quality beans that you can buy in Vietnam. They cultivate a regional variant of arabica in their highlands. And even using a standard Bialetti Moca cup produces exceptional results with that coffee.
Gaggia.
Delonghi Dedica!
Breville Barista Express probably.
I've definitely seen these in more homes and offices than anything from La Marzocco.
The fact that it costs a tenth of the La Marzocco Linea Mini helps a lot.
I've got a DeLonghi Dedica Duo which makes much better coffee than it has any right to... And it's very cheap.
Even can adjust temperature and shot water volume...
putting milk in your coffee haha
Italian design from some of these eras is unmatched. A new LMLM is beautiful, but even the budget home espresso machines from Gaggia used to take it more seriously. A Gaggia classic pro [0] that you can buy today looks clean but boring, but previous era Gaggia Baby [1] would look amazing on any countertop or even as an objet d'art. The lines of the Gaggia Espresso [2] are reminiscent of a Ferrari Testarossa.
0 - https://coffeegeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Gaggia-Cla...
1 - https://live.staticflickr.com/5749/20930782499_f47f18391a_b....
2 - https://preview.redd.it/i-call-your-oldies-and-raise-this-19...
Just drink tea.
La Marzocco GS3 and Olympia Express owner here. LM isn't the Ferrari ... that title really should go to KVW and Slayer :)
Nice! Which one do you use most often?
GS3 3 times a day :) it’s got a timer to auto start every morning and the iPhone app is super convenient to switch on and pre heat the machine ..the Olympia is the Leica of espresso machines, beautiful but limited .. it’s really designed for Italian style espresso (dark roast) and even the Olympia grinder works best for dark roasts