I’ve been on several silent retreats now and one of the most surprising discoveries was just how much speaking is unnecessary.
Without the pressure to speak amongst others, it became clear that I often said things out of anxiety - fear of looking weird or of making the other person uncomfortable.
Nowadays I rarely speak when I feel that pressure and paradoxically it has led to far deeper relationships and more interesting conversations.
It seems that the topics that come up when theres a pressure to fill the silence are the most mundane. Deeper connection seems to happen in the silences, or rather mutual comfort with silence.
Another way I could describe it is it feels almost as if there’s a fear of really being seen in silence that the surface level conversation manages to keep at bay.
> Without the pressure to speak amongst others, it became clear that I often said things out of anxiety
I can't go probably 100 words without saying something stupid or flat out contradictory. I'll think back to the conversation, realize I don't actually think or believe what I said, and wonder just what possessed me to say that and how many people I've alienated with words that I don't even believe or hold to be true!
Silence is one way to avoid making those mistakes, but that's me avoiding the problem, not actually solving it (and it would be nice to speak all the time in truth, with coherence, and consistent with what I believe), despite not having much to say in the first place, unless:
- to clear misunderstanding / requests ("Excuse me, but I think this is my seat.")
I've done silent retreats as well, but I'm not a big fan. I live on my own and get plenty of silence that way. Being around other silent people was an odd experience, sort of like being on the train with people staring into space. It reminded me of being sent to Coventry. I did find it easy to communicate on silent retreat but not enjoyable. I just went off and read a book or took a walk.
Seems like you have already figured out a means that works for you. What works for some doesn't work for others. What is a problem for some, isn't a problem for others.
Sort of like how some folks say 'everyone should meditate.' Maybe that worked for them and the issues they had, and that is brilliant, but lots of people don't have that problem or that response doesn't fit them.
It's worth pointing out at least that there is a qualitative difference between silence in isolation, and being around people who are intentionally being silent.
I live in a rural area and don't get much noise at all other than wind and animal noises when I'm home alone. It is comfortable precisely because it isn't artificial. Going to a silent retreat means being around people who are intentionally suppressing their desire to speak and being expected to fit in. It is an intentional change in behavior, which starts out uncomfortable.
I live in a apartment with a courtyard, it's taken me 10 years of knocking on folks doors. Normally it's new tenants who don't know how much noise they make and I have to ask them nicely if they could turn down their devices and show consideration.
There have groans, feuds and aggressiveness towards me for asking for peace. I'm not unreasonable. If you wish to have a party, do it adult without DJs blaring till 3am.
Most of the time, it's that they didn't realise. But it's had aggressive moments where it's turned to "It's my apartment ..."; and I get it. Folk don't like being told to show consideration for their neighbours and only when the noise effects them do they realise how disrupting noise is.
The courtyard too has seagulls and at 5am it turns in to a hellish frenzy. So luckily this has taught folk a lot about how peaceful quiet actually is and on cases have made others move out.
And too the courtyard faces the back of a couple of restaurants which are were the exhaust fans for their ovens stand. What I presume is due to lack of calibration as these whirl sometimes up until 2am even though their restaurants close at 11pm. You can really feel the level of atmospheric vibration drop when they shut off. It's a sigh of relief when they do.
I've plead, and the local council is useless so I have put up with it. 3am is really the only time I can actually relax my ears in to a slumber because having hyper audio sensory really sucks.
Peace is nice and I wish others would value it more. But with peace, folk don't know what to do. It scares them at first because it's rare to encounter in this day and age.
I can relate, but the problem here is that you shouldn't live in an apartment. I never will again, for all the reasons you outlined. It's unreasonable to expect quiet in apartments. People have different schedules, they're different ages, and some are just assholes.
Other HN users keep telling us that we should support dense housing development. I think those people have never lived in an apartment complex with trashy neighbors.
I've lived in an apartment complex with weirdos before, including one lady who used to scream at random times, but we basically couldn't hear them. The screaming lady was only audible if the window was open.
All the apartments were separated by brick or concrete, the front doors had lobbies that acted as baffles, and all the living areas were carpeted and had good thick ceilings.
Japan isn't America. People, all throughout Asia, are a million times more considerate and reasonable, with Japan near the top of this list. There's also far fewer crazy people - be that mentally unwell, people on drugs, or whatever else.
Even though the restaurant closes at 11, doesn't meant there isn't plenty of cleaning and 'closing' still left to do by the staff, often into the 'wee' hours.
These restaurants are locked with shutters down at 11.
What I presume is that the cool down is on a uncalibrated timing like unfair traffic lights but you can't really demonstrate this as they just shrug and tell you it's not their problem.
Please don't post snarky comments like this on HN. We've wrestled with this for a long time and have settled on the least worst solution: paywalled articles are only allowable if there's an easy workaround that everyone access, like Archive.is, which you've helpfully shared. It's annoying that we have to deal with this issue but we're still better off with the articles than not.
We can do without mean words like “obnoxious” for people contributing interesting articles for the community to read.
I’ve been on several silent retreats now and one of the most surprising discoveries was just how much speaking is unnecessary.
Without the pressure to speak amongst others, it became clear that I often said things out of anxiety - fear of looking weird or of making the other person uncomfortable.
Nowadays I rarely speak when I feel that pressure and paradoxically it has led to far deeper relationships and more interesting conversations.
It seems that the topics that come up when theres a pressure to fill the silence are the most mundane. Deeper connection seems to happen in the silences, or rather mutual comfort with silence.
Another way I could describe it is it feels almost as if there’s a fear of really being seen in silence that the surface level conversation manages to keep at bay.
> Without the pressure to speak amongst others, it became clear that I often said things out of anxiety
I can't go probably 100 words without saying something stupid or flat out contradictory. I'll think back to the conversation, realize I don't actually think or believe what I said, and wonder just what possessed me to say that and how many people I've alienated with words that I don't even believe or hold to be true!
Silence is one way to avoid making those mistakes, but that's me avoiding the problem, not actually solving it (and it would be nice to speak all the time in truth, with coherence, and consistent with what I believe), despite not having much to say in the first place, unless:
- to clear misunderstanding / requests ("Excuse me, but I think this is my seat.")
- to prevent harm / danger ("Look out!")
- civics / politeness ("Excuse me", "Good morning", "I'm fine, thank you.")
I've done silent retreats as well, but I'm not a big fan. I live on my own and get plenty of silence that way. Being around other silent people was an odd experience, sort of like being on the train with people staring into space. It reminded me of being sent to Coventry. I did find it easy to communicate on silent retreat but not enjoyable. I just went off and read a book or took a walk.
Seems like you have already figured out a means that works for you. What works for some doesn't work for others. What is a problem for some, isn't a problem for others.
Sort of like how some folks say 'everyone should meditate.' Maybe that worked for them and the issues they had, and that is brilliant, but lots of people don't have that problem or that response doesn't fit them.
It's worth pointing out at least that there is a qualitative difference between silence in isolation, and being around people who are intentionally being silent.
I live in a rural area and don't get much noise at all other than wind and animal noises when I'm home alone. It is comfortable precisely because it isn't artificial. Going to a silent retreat means being around people who are intentionally suppressing their desire to speak and being expected to fit in. It is an intentional change in behavior, which starts out uncomfortable.
I live in a apartment with a courtyard, it's taken me 10 years of knocking on folks doors. Normally it's new tenants who don't know how much noise they make and I have to ask them nicely if they could turn down their devices and show consideration.
There have groans, feuds and aggressiveness towards me for asking for peace. I'm not unreasonable. If you wish to have a party, do it adult without DJs blaring till 3am.
Most of the time, it's that they didn't realise. But it's had aggressive moments where it's turned to "It's my apartment ..."; and I get it. Folk don't like being told to show consideration for their neighbours and only when the noise effects them do they realise how disrupting noise is.
The courtyard too has seagulls and at 5am it turns in to a hellish frenzy. So luckily this has taught folk a lot about how peaceful quiet actually is and on cases have made others move out.
And too the courtyard faces the back of a couple of restaurants which are were the exhaust fans for their ovens stand. What I presume is due to lack of calibration as these whirl sometimes up until 2am even though their restaurants close at 11pm. You can really feel the level of atmospheric vibration drop when they shut off. It's a sigh of relief when they do.
I've plead, and the local council is useless so I have put up with it. 3am is really the only time I can actually relax my ears in to a slumber because having hyper audio sensory really sucks.
Peace is nice and I wish others would value it more. But with peace, folk don't know what to do. It scares them at first because it's rare to encounter in this day and age.
I can relate, but the problem here is that you shouldn't live in an apartment. I never will again, for all the reasons you outlined. It's unreasonable to expect quiet in apartments. People have different schedules, they're different ages, and some are just assholes.
Other HN users keep telling us that we should support dense housing development. I think those people have never lived in an apartment complex with trashy neighbors.
I've lived in an apartment complex with weirdos before, including one lady who used to scream at random times, but we basically couldn't hear them. The screaming lady was only audible if the window was open.
All the apartments were separated by brick or concrete, the front doors had lobbies that acted as baffles, and all the living areas were carpeted and had good thick ceilings.
i live in shibuya and i have countless videos where it’s <40db outside.
just make the damn building with noise in mind (RC, interior insulation, gapped flooring, etc).
it’s very possible.
(btw I am as country bumpkin as they come, my village has less than 200 people so i understand rural living.)
Japan isn't America. People, all throughout Asia, are a million times more considerate and reasonable, with Japan near the top of this list. There's also far fewer crazy people - be that mentally unwell, people on drugs, or whatever else.
As we continue to devolve into a lower and lower trust society, the problem will get worse.
If people want to live in a shoebox surrounded by thousands of other people in a shoebox, I wont stop them but I"m not going to normalize it either.
It's usually because they're not the ones living in the dense housing, or will ever.
Even though the restaurant closes at 11, doesn't meant there isn't plenty of cleaning and 'closing' still left to do by the staff, often into the 'wee' hours.
These restaurants are locked with shutters down at 11.
What I presume is that the cool down is on a uncalibrated timing like unfair traffic lights but you can't really demonstrate this as they just shrug and tell you it's not their problem.
Article is behind a paywall for me.
Odd that it’s on HN front page :-/
Reader mode bypasses it. It's only a JS layer on top of content that's already inside the HTML doc.
Disabling first party JS works too, using umatrix or similar tools. The site works perfectly without JS.
Edit: because of all of that, of course view source bypasses the paywall too and reveals tons of inlined CSS.
This. Comment. ^ is going to change my life.
Thank you!! I had no idea, and this is such an elegant fix.
“Refresh, and quickly just click the reader button as the page loads slow on mobile, anyways”
That’s how much their silence was able to accomplish!
https://archive.is/8GB36
I agree with you though, it's obnoxious to share paywalled articles on Hacker News.
Please don't post snarky comments like this on HN. We've wrestled with this for a long time and have settled on the least worst solution: paywalled articles are only allowable if there's an easy workaround that everyone access, like Archive.is, which you've helpfully shared. It's annoying that we have to deal with this issue but we're still better off with the articles than not.
We can do without mean words like “obnoxious” for people contributing interesting articles for the community to read.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
It annoys me too, but is not unusual for journalism submissions here.
HN sometimes likes to discuss texts that weren't published as a free contribution on some blog by a dev with lots of time on their hand.
It's not forbidden to post paywalled links on HN, AFAIK.
I also struggle to see an alternative when it comes to professional journalism.
Maybe a kind soul will be able to share a gift link.
I've added the archive.is link to the thread header.
> It's not forbidden to post paywalled links on HN, AFAIK.
The FAQ states that it's fine to post paywalled links as long as there is a workaround that everyone can easily access.
The biggest win for AI dev efficiency is cutting down what gets loaded into context. Semantically matching tasks to the top tools helps a lot.