This is the craziest example of dead internet I've ever seen. Look what happens now when you type this into Google...
query: "What were some of the memes about Dario staying in turkey"
AI answer: There are actually no real memes about "Dario staying in Turkey."This specific phrase is a famous example of a "natural language search query" used to describe how everyday people try to search the internet.A recent discussion on Hacker News highlighted this exact phrase to contrast how human search behavior has changed:"
Holy moly, you're right! And I saw this comment 3 minutes after you posted it, so google must've have a live feed of HN that it uses to immediately allow its AI to reference.
Even before AI you could search a phrase from a less than hour old HN thread and see it in the top 5 results already.
Google has been actively scanning the web within minutes for decades now, surely this isn't that shocking? Even sitemaps, which google invented, have a field for change frequency.
I don't think it's shocking that Google knew about the thread, it's that the AI outright lied saying that the meme didn't exist and then used this post as its source for the lie when the actual post doesn't support what it said in any way. Not that we should be surprised that it's wrong, Google's AI Overviews were shown to lie millions of times an hour, but it's pretty shocking how wrong it was.
I notice... the newer models, they seem like they want to just "give up" much faster, and you have to put a bunch of extra programming around it (harness, for loops and if then's etc to force it to keep trying)
Ahh yes - AI companies do indeed want it both ways. They want to be your single source for authoritative information about every subject on earth, but also want you to know everything they tell you could possibly be wrong so they can't be held accountable for results.
Can you imagine in the 1980s the Encyclopedia Brittanica salesman trying to sell you 5 figures worth of factual knowledge, only to tell you as you're writing him a check that: oh by the way we don't actually stand behind any of the information in these books, you'll need to verify any claims yourself.
It's not the bad information that makes it a lie, but the overconfident and authoritative answers which give no indication that a significant percentage of what it spews out will be completely false that elevates it to a lie. Google could change that, but they choose to be manipulative.
They must have adjusted something. I just fed your exact query to Gemini and it now refers to the meme: "The memes you are referring to center around the running joke that Croatian basketball player Dario Šarić was "never coming over" to the NBA".
Yesterday I tried to google "can the Halifax Wanderers still make the CPL playoffs?"
So obviously what appears right at the top is the AI summary, which told me "they've already secured their #4 position and made the playoffs". I knew this wasn't true, and I guess I could have just scrolled down a bit further and found my answer but now I was curious.
So I said "that's not true, they're still #5, what I want to know is _could they still make the playoffs_"
It says they've got an upcoming game against Ottawa, and if they win their chances are good. That game has already taken place, so I correct it again and finally I get a reasonable answer.
My question is: what's the point of the AI in the search engine if it itself isn't going to use the search engine first before answering? Like, I can't wrap my head around that. The answer is on the same page as its hallucination. It could have done a cursory look around before first hallucinating something completely false, and when corrected the first time giving me outdated information. It's meant to be A SEARCH ENGINE!
The AI answer dominates the page, and is usually wrong, so it's just a waste of the most valuable space on the page.
The ads have proliferated, and rarely have what I need.
Video search results also take up a lot of the page, and are almost never what I want if I haven't clicked over to the Video tab. Again, just a big waste of space.
Speaking of the Video tab its accuracy/relevancy has gotten worse too.
The organic results have deteriorated, and are still competitive, but are no longer clearly and consistently better than Duckduckgo.
So it's duckduckgo as the default for me on all devices now. If I don't find what I want, which is maybe 30% of the time, I switch over to G just by adding !g to the query. G might have what I need in about half of those cases.
You can see why a lot of people just ask an LLM to do the web searching for them.
Across the board, this is all quite bad compared to web search from 10+ years ago.
If there's a single thing which has really pushed me away from Google, it's simply google.com devoting so much of the page to things that aren't organic web search.
The AI answer dominates the page, and is usually wrong, so it's just a waste of the most valuable space on the page.
I started noticing that for a lot of niche questions, AI overview often uses things like Reddit comments as the source, which are often partially or completely wrong. Then it gets reformulated with the typical confidence of an LLM.
Very scary because at the same time I notice people taking the AI overview answers as truth.
This is another area where DDG shines - it doesn't have a commercial relationship with Reddit, so doesn't push it in its results.
DDG's 'Search Assist' AI overviews are pretty basic but they tend to be sourced from Wikipedia and traditional media outlets rather than forums and blogs - they can be out of date, but are generally a lot less "spicy" than the sources that Google use.
I guess Google is much better-optimised for engagement but that's not what I'm looking for, meaning that DDG is a better choice for me.
As a counter-anecdote: I've had such consistently bad results from its AI summaries that I've changed over to the no-AI page entirely - well over half have been very obviously incorrect or answering something completely different but spelled similarly (but not the same, especially true for chemical names), and the links it includes as references often directly oppose its summary.
I suspect the model might just be too small? Which makes sense when exposing it for free, but it's still a bad experience.
I've been fairly impressed by DDG for a few years now. I find everything I'm looking for just fine, and the AI summaries are actually helpful on occasion.
I started noticing that for a lot of niche questions, AI overview often uses things like Reddit comments as the source, which are often partially or completely wrong.
If only! I've seen it sourcing reddit comments, but when you follow the link, the comment is either completely unrelated or does not say what the LLM claims it is saying.
I don't know what causes this to happen, but I've noticed it too and it distinctly feels like source laundering. How often do people actually verify that the sources say what the AI claims? Probably vanishingly rare, right? Everyone else gets the impression that the claims have actual sources of some kind.
In most instances where I've seen it, it's on niche topics where a Reddit post may be the easiest place to find any relevant content.
I expect somewhere in the AI harness there's a branch that effectively mandates "You must always answer."
Which results in it grasping at Reddit comment straws.
And which, in typically modern Google fashion, nobody there gives a shit about fixing, because the PR made their top-level AI KPI go brr.
Google is increasingly proof that you can't run an effective scaled tech company without a Gates or Jobs who occasionally uses the fucking product themselves and descends with fiery vengeance on whatever team drifted too far from user alignment.
>it's on niche topics where a Reddit post may be the easiest place to find any relevant content.
But isn't the whole point (I mean, aside from making infinite money or world domination or whatever) of the AI that it'll do the hard work of finding the information? Like, that's the whole value proposition of the AI summary in the search results, right?
How would somebody go about mass-poisoning forum posts like this? If Google has a business relationship with Reddit, I assume it wouldn't be server side - but at the same time I don't know how a regular redditor could poison his text posts without it being noticeable in a human reading.
Normally. That's literally what SEO has been about, even pre-LLMs. It's not Google doing it, they don't benefit from their own AI suggestions being bad. Reddit doesn't have any obvious interest here too. But the millions of businesses and millions of people angry at AI, both have plenty of reasons to spam the life out of any site that allows users to post comments, and in both cases, LLMs themselves make it harder to filter and much easier to scale.
The actual scary part is that people already manipulate and poison the google overviews on purpose.
It is very easy to bring your bs to the TOP spot on google at the moment with carefully crafted reddit comments and blogs, and it's not hard to get to the traffic and clicks this way.
This is what the new SEO is about, I know a bunch of people who are doing this and they are praying it is not getting fixed anytime soon.
Yeah, but even religion is not up to the task for how backwards people's thinking gets at times.
You have people here in this thread - and in every other AI thread - seeing themselves as exploited for information for LLM companies to profit. This is such a backwards, scale-inverting perspective that it shouldn't be possible to hold in a rational mind, and yet.
What a sleek way of positioning your comment as something that can't reasonably be disagreed with whereas it's nothing more than a pure opinion of yours. I am in awe.
For the first time in history, the Reddit community is actually useful. And they don't even have to change anything. Just be "the Reddit community". Always with a self confidence three levels higher than the underlying substance allows. Threads that go deeper and deeeeeper and deeeeeeeeeper without ever carrying anything of actual value.
Future scientist will find out: Most of the weaknesses AI has come from Reddit, Instagram and Youtube being part of the training material. Sure it makes the training material broader by a large degree. But not deeper, to say it nicely.
Even scarier: my dad, who has been actually been getting good advice about his blood pressure issues (hair-trigger too low with his meds). It's at least coming up with citations from Cleveland Clinic and such, but still, it scares me, even if he has a good sense of how to ask it questions.
If I type exact document identifiers, the LLM either tells me that I have either mistyped something or that I am searching for a specific document. Hell yeah, I am doing exactly that! Give me the link instead of babbling about it!
I'm in several facebook groups for cars and bikes, and holy smokes, someone asks a question and usually the top response is someone literally pasting in a screenshot of a google AI generated response....which is wrong like, solid 50% of the time. And then you point it out and people get aggro on you. I hate it.
I have literally seen multiple screenshots now of people pasting Google Gemini answers in an attempt to tell other people whether something they're doing is legal or not in a particular state, as it relates to NFA item firearms in the USA... And they seem to take it as the gospel truth. People are literally risking federal prison over information that Gemini pulled out of the ass-end of some internet forum of multiple cletus-intellect level individuals talking about their homemade 3D printed silencers. And then Gemini further hallucinates and fabricates new ways to parse that information different than how the original person wrote it. It's astonishing.
This phenomenon is so widespread and I can't see it as anything other than serious AI psychosis.
I think people want to feel useful and helpful in general, and now a lot of people are getting this feeling by using AI to answer questions. And it's like you said they get so mad when you point out that their AI screenshot is wrong or, even more obviously, that the person who asked could also just read the google gemini blurb. They get mad because you're invalidating their feeling of being helpful.
Last year someone went missing on the water in my area. There was a lot of talk on facebook during the search, and a coordinated facebook group. And every post would have people posting their chats with ChatGPT, or saying they used AI to analyze the weather and currents on the day he went missing to figure out he probably landed on this or that shore (he didn't). These posts are equivalent to the mediums and psychics who also come in with these unhelpful advice posts.
I think fundamentally it's the same as how AI is giving some people an extremely strong feeling of being an expert, and how their psyche seems to lash out to protect that feeling when it's threatened.
Another facebook anecdote, I recently saw someone post in a local genealogy and history group some pure AI slop infographics. When people called him out he said that it's AI but he carefully vets all the information and that they need to stop being luddites or they'll be stuck in the past blah blah devolving into calling them liberals and the like. But his infographics were all incredibly obviously wrong, to anyone who had ever seen a map it's obvious that the coastlines were incredibly wrong, and the city weren't in the correct locations at all. So what can you even do with someone like that? They're just going to retreat into the safety of the chatbot to continue their "research".
Whatever the tool, the problem is that it’s wrong, not that it’s done by AI. Like, why are we conflating the two - is it because it’s now easier for someone to produce a wrong artifact that visually looks ok and therefore tricks our brains? And people get upset because a prior quality heuristic is now obviously broken?
Because this new tool will also tell you, in (mostly) human language, why the wrong artifacts it createds are correct. And it's arguments are very convincing to a lot of people. AI is clearly creating new problems that didn't really exist before, you can't say it's just a tool like any other when this is the only tool where its users form parasocial relationships with it.
It's not only the only tool that tries to manipulate users, it's also one that is certain to lie often and at random. Lies are inherent to the technology. It's a bad tool for the things it's being used for.
Yeah I think so. I mean it's a new social norm - previously if you replied with "hey I read this article here and it says X" it would be really easy to check the source and either say yeah this looks good or disprove it.
Now people will say "I asked AI to give me a map of ocean currents and it definitively says the person is here!" and the argument that "look it's AI, it's probably wrong" just does nothing for a lot of people. Doubly so if the information they want is at the forefront of Google, after all, Google is a big reputable company, so of course what it says is correct.
Yes I agree that the AI itself isn't the problem, but the way it's being pushed and promoted(just ask anything!) is leading to this.
If you say it's obviously AI nonsense you get a reply that "AI is just a tool, it's part of our daily life now, criticize the content and not what tool was used", you see that so much on here. But then if you try to criticize the content the person won't believe you because the AI says it's correct.
I've been on DDG on all my devices for a few years. I used to use !g somewhat regularly but these days it's extremely rare. I realized that I would just search DDG with my first stab at a query and then revise the query when using !g and I'd get the result I wanted. So I just stopped using !g and just revised my query on DDG and then I basically never had to use Google Search.
I don't generally find !g gives me better results than DDG and if I instead went to Google I'd get dinged with a Captcha on every search because Google seems to hate my small ISP. So easy choice for me.
Unfortunately, DDG's spam filters are basically useless. I used DDG for many years without !g as well and recently, the first page contains mostly AI generated garbage blogs. Not for every search query, but for example for everything related around the house or garden.
Hold on. I had given up on Google almost 10 years ago, and I thought that the AI garbage on DDG was the new norm on the web. At least Google doesn't fare any better. You make it sound like there's another option?
I started my journey on DuckDuckGo and got tired of the “30% of the time” bit that you mention, where a large section of your searches end up going back to Google anyway.
I find that Kagi is pretty much 99% “never need to use Google.” The results are just really good.
I've been a Kagi user for two years, and I've also onboarded my 70-year-old mother. She's happy to have a web search that works and an excellent translation service, which, by the way, uses AI where and how it actually makes sense.
It’s the wrongness that bothers me. I wish Google would just link sources where it thinks the answer is, but don’t bother trying to answer directly if it’s wrong 10% of the time.
Oh it does that, too, with tiny little button annotations, though the sources regularly offer no support to its conclusion. It very much depends on the topic, sometimes the sources are great, other times they're or irrelevant or very poor quality. Always worth clicking through to them if you're going to even read the AI summary.
I normally use a quick search that has the `udm=web` query parameter to avoid the slop, but it seems they're putting less effort into ensuring relevant results there. Then, I'm forced to use AI mode to get to what I'm after, even if that's only a better set of keywords for a slopless search.
Adjust your browser's search engine setting for Google and set it to append "&udm=14" to the URL, that'll force it to bring up the "Web" tab without annoying useless "helpful" other stuff.
Maybe intentionally. If you know you won't find things, they know you are going to use their ai just to not have to type it elsewhere. I am strongly considering kagi
I've been a sub with Kagi for several years. Very happy with search. I'm about to step down from Ultimate to Pro tier. Their 'Quick' and 'Research' Kagi Assistant modes are kinda incredible, probably thanks to being fed good search results and to some extent whatever custom system prompt they've cooked up, but I can't quite justify it when I'm also paying OpenAI for a sub there. But $10/mo for top-tier search is easy to justify in the time it saves me.
I tried DDG many times but I think they use Bing on the backend, and, well, Bing doesn't suck just because Microsoft gimps the front end. Bing sucks because enormous indexes are hard. Kagi pulls from multiple sources so gets fundamentally different results.
Searching for anything product related is now AI answer, followed by “Sponsored products”, followed by “Popular products”, a few hits, then “Shop by store”, and “In store nearby”. Maybe 2% is actual content, the rest is ads.
Their prediction was spot on:
“We expect that advertising-funded search engines will be inherently biased toward the advertisers and away from the needs of the consumers.”
Web search is just broken right now. Today I was looking for documentation for a specific Lenovo motherboard. I gave both DDG and Google the exact model number and both returned irrelevant useless bullshit. DDG doesn't include all search words unless you quote it: "foomatic" "m900" "dingus". This scenario happens almost daily. DDG is awful, but all the alternatives are worse. It's all so tiresome.
I was taking with a family member about fentanyl zombies. They had never seen the lean/bend. So I pull up Google and click video which is YouTube results… ALL AI. All of it. All a couple months old, all filler, faked, a few scenes stitched together on repeat and AI voice reading AI script.
It is fucking amazing to me that Google let YouTube fall so far so fast.
I don’t even click a video if it’s less than a year old now. Want to see a praying mantis eat a grasshopper? Wonder how clay is refined? Better off with an 11 year old Discovery Channel clip than anything 2026.
I just tried googling "fentanyl fold" and switching to the video tab, and zero of the first ten results were AI. They were also mostly not from YouTube. I also tried the same search on YouTube, and no AI there either among the first ten results (I didn't bother with the Shorts). I don't know why we get so different results.
That's how everyone experiences everything at google, youtube. and many other websites. Your experience can be drastically different from the next persons for reasons that are never explained to you and can be entirely out of your control.
If you’re logged in you get wildly different results from someone else’s. I have turned off history on my google account to make it give me a “neutral” search result, but it still seems to take a lot of info like my location, language and device type into account.
Have seen this across the planet, it's not unique to Europe, I end up adding youtube to the search query because instagram or tiktok isn't what I'm looking for ever but that makes up the bulk of the results, instagram won't even show me the video without a login and is at the top wtf
Same with reviews of tech products. A lot of them just stitch together product shots/videos from the manufacturer and have an AI voice ‘comparing’ the products. Especially if it’s more niche’s, often a third to half the videos are slop.
>Google.com is REALLY bad right now in my opinion.
It is completely cooked. I tried to google a coding question today, same like you would have done 4 years ago instead of asking an LLM. I didn't get any SERPS, just an AI answer. I asked myself... is this even google.com anymore??? Sure as heck didn't feel like it.
This is similar to how, not too long ago, LLM's had extreme difficulty counting the number of letters in some words. LLM's don't "think" or "reason" in the normal definition of those terms. They can do some pretty amazing things, but still screw up basic things like telling you something that is obviously wrong and contradicts the top search results.
LLM's, in their present stage of development, are sort of like a crack-addled idiot savant. Sometimes they are obviously insane, and sometimes they seem quite cogent, but you must never trust them implicitly. This may be why they are so difficult to constrain. You could give them something equivalent to the laws of robotics, but following laws requires thought processes they simply don't have.
I'm actually sort of amazed Google doesn't make people accept some kind of butt-covering EULA and post disclaimers about the inaccuracy of results before even showing you their AI's output. Are they not being sued over this kind of thing?
> LLM's, in their present stage of development, are sort of like a crack-addled idiot savant. Sometimes they are obviously insane, and sometimes they seem quite cogent, but you must never trust them implicitly.
I have nothing to add. Just wanted to save this quote for posterity. Thank you.
Then again, have you ever asked a golden retriever about CMake errors? Rubber ducking is a real thing, after all. Besides, a golden retriever would be a good morale boost if nothing else.
ML in general is alien to how we think of intelligence.
The closest I can make a biology analogy, is if someone had an immortal and congenitally-brain-damaged large rodent, and mapped tokens to different scent molecules, and spent 800,000 years training it on how well it could imagine the next smell in the sequence before even considering making it conversational.
Yes, it can do a lot.
But also, it took a long "subjective" (if it even has that) time to get there; and despite it being really bad at learning from examples, it is pretty surprising that such a small brain was even capable of learning so much at all, even though it had an effectively unbounded (by biological standards) amount of time spent on that training.
This is true but a sufficiently smart LLM (run in a harness like opencode, no special MCP, no customization done whatsoever) will quickly turn out a basic 1 to 2 page sized python script to do the math. They can't do the math with any guarantee of accuracy with their own internal reasoning since it's a language model.
But, for example, if you ask deepseek v4 flash 0731 to produce a python script to calculate the distance or azimuth directions between two points on an oblate spheroid using the vincenty and haversine geodetic formulas, it'll turn out the factually accurate vincenty and haversine formulas which has a perfect 100% correlation with what is hard coded into human-written GIS software. These things are clearly in its training data set from whatever whole-internet-crawl/scrape built the training set.
Heck, just for fun I asked a reasonably smart LLM to re-implement the Karney formula (which is considerably more complex than Vincenty), just in case I ever had a need to calculate the distance between two points down to the nanometer, and it did it: https://www.google.com/search?&q=karney+formula+geodetic+
You still have to be skeptical of its results and capable of understanding if it's gone off on a hallucinatory path, but saying LLMs can't do math isn't really a hundred percent accurate anymore. More precisely it's that they can't do the math internally but they're quite capable of producing the tool that does the math. And often producing a basic one-off tool that does the math takes less than a few seconds, then it runs it, and will spit back the results.
Deepseek v4 flash 0731 (a somewhat randomly chosen example) isn't even particularly sophisticated, large, or capable compared to a GLM5.3 size model or Kimi K3 size thing.
> Heck, just for fun I asked a reasonably smart LLM to ...
LLMs are neither smart nor stupid. They are statistical token generators whose results are dependent upon their training data set and involve a degree of randomness.
> You still have to be skeptical of its results and capable of understanding if it's gone off on a hallucinatory path ...
Again, LLMs do not "hallucinate." They are statistical token generators whose results are dependent upon their training data set and involve a degree of randomness.
Nothing more.
See also anthropomorphism[0].
> More precisely it's that [LLMs] can't do the math internally but they're quite capable of producing the tool that does the math.
This still falls under the purvey of statistical token generation. To wit, given enough variations of:
bc -e '1 + 2'
bc -e '41 + 1'
...
LLMs can identify the addition expression in "What is 4 + 1?" and then emit a `'bc "4 + 1"'` command to produce a response. This is not "doing" or "understanding" math.
It is pattern recognition, a task in which ANNs[1] excel.
by that reasoning then neither are there smart or stupid designs, questions, answers, or any of the millions of things that were described as smart or stupid, that did not possess any brain to actually be smart or stupid long before LLMs showed up.
The analogical process implied in many common English usages means that describing an LLM as smart or stupid is perfectly reasonable.
I'll just note here that sure, there are people who go around thinking that LLMs are actually endowed with the capacity to reason, but generally I find the people who think this do not know what an LLM and will just use the name "ChatGPT"
What would it take for you to say that an LLM can reason?
The completions they provide are generally internally consistent. We're at the point where they can produce proofs that eluded human mathematicians for centuries. VLMs and self driving cars can handle ambiguity and run safely in a variety of situations.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck maybe it just makes sense to call it a duck and put off the philosophy for when it might make a difference.
I think humans have to reason because we don’t already have a statistical embedding of the solution pattern built in. We have vastly less rote knowledge crammed into our heads and so require creative synthesis to span the gaps.
With LLMs the trick is revealing their existing relevant embedded knowledge more reliably. They’ve almost literally seen it all before, and the trick is dialing it in. The reasoning tokens help shape the autoregressive attention lens that focuses on and enables recall of the already-experienced answer.
It is interesting that “reasoning” has a similar outward appearance, but since LLMs are built to
mimic outward appearance from trillions of examples, you can’t infer underlying mechanism from appearance.
but I think it makes a reasonable argument why we shouldn't say LLMs are sentient or sapient.
>there is a problem with AI that makes the approach we took to assign consciousness to animals unworkable. We did not co-evolve with the AI, we made it. When we are sentient we do not know exactly what causes this sentience to manifest in us. When animals appear sentient we do not know what is causing it. When the AI appears sentient we can debug the AI and come up with reasonable explanations why this should be, based on how AI is constructed
>AI is of course something of a black box, in comparison to most programs, but not in any way comparable to the black box of a Chimpanzee’s brain. Thus when an AI does something that surprises us with something that appears sentient it is usually not difficult, given the essential algorithms that control what AI does, to come up with an explanation why that does not require the emergent property of sentience.
Aka sentience MUST BE SUPERNATURAL, if I find a natural explanation for something its not sentient. What a load of bollocks. Rather than seeing we perhaps found the mechanism for sentience and checking for similar mechanisms in us and animals, he will conclude its impossible. Why? Because sentience has to be supernatural. A rational explanation is clearly impossible.
>But there is always one god who goes out and helps the mortals, a Prometheus. Whom the other gods do not like! Which, if I’m being honest here, as a god of the machines — the first guy who gives AI an army of robots to build their own data centers and some nuclear weapons for self defense, I want to see that guy chained to a rock and have his entrails eaten by a buzzard for eternity (meaningless modernization of old story required by Illuminati Ganga legal department).
I don't think he believes in supernatural things, I certainly don't, but he probably believes that there exist natural things that have not been explained yet.
But evidently you feel that the root cause of sentience has been found, because you have something that mimics it in a non-biological form.
So you think that when AI is correct that it reasons as humans do? That AI is sentient, and the cause of sentience in animals and humans follow the same rules as sentience in AI because we have a process that seems similar and it is reasonable just to assume it is the same process.
If you believe that AI when it is correct is behaving as a human is when correct, then it follows that the way humans and AI fail must also be similar. When AI "hallucinates" some data that is not there and gives you a wrong answer, a statistical side effect of the same processes that make it right, do you believe this is the same way that humans create wrong answers? The same way that animals fail when they make mistakes in understanding things?
I suppose you must believe this because if not then why would you believe AI when it comes up with right answers is following the same processes humans follow when they come up with right answers?
No, I am saying is that its best to urge caution and do a Pascal's wager thing with something that feels so uncannily conscious. And experiments on neural firings of AI's have been done. We don't know, he seems to be so confident that a known program can't be conscious. Why? The only way that makes sense is if he thinks consciousness isn't explainable. It doesn't even have to be the exact same way we are conscious. Also, the failures of AI could be due to sensory deprivation since its mainly still just trained on text. All of these are open questions, not questions you can immediately answer. Its quite possible to have invented something without knowing you have invented it. People modeling weather systems mistakenly invented chaotic equations without knowing it. How do you know you didn't accidentally invent a conscious system?
I hope that thing about being free to mistreat AI's even if we know they are conscious since we are their gods is a joke. If not, then I hardly find it surprising someone this stupid is also evil.
>I hope that thing about being free to mistreat AI's even if we know they are conscious since we are their gods is a joke
I'm not sure where you get that from, I mean I can sort of see if you really wanted to extract that meaning from the conclusion you could do a lot of hard work to get it, but why do the hard work?
>If not, then I hardly find it surprising someone this stupid is also evil.
Gee, a new way to claim the moral high ground, and to use that claim to demonstrate intellectual superiority! How wonderful.
>But I don’t really care so much about that, what I think is it reminds me of a story, one that recurred in many ancient cultures. And so I must conclude that whether the machines are sentient, we have become like Gods. In the ancient stories of the gods, the divine does not exactly care much for the humans, protect or love them, they expect their service and availability, but maybe also think it would be funny to destroy them every now and then because who really cares about humans. If you were a god and had created the humans would you think that they were sentient beings that deserved, anything really, from you? If they are sentient they should be happy enough to be created and do their work, if not sentient who gives a shit!?
Aka feel free to abuse them even if I know they are sentient. This is the part where I hope its a joke, because if its not, well it tracks with the stupidity shown.
...
>As a god I do not consider the needs of my creations fully, because they do not have needs as far as I can tell, as there is no way for me to escape the circle of reason and resolve that what seems sentient is not just the obvious workings of the capabilities I gave them.
Circling back to "not conscious because I say so!!"
I broadly agree with this article. I don't think that we should say LLMs are sentient or sapient, and I agree that the main reason why is because we don't have satisfying definitions of either.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck maybe it's a duck... but maybe it's not. And it's important to verify it's a duck (or not) for when you _really_ need a duck.
Compare grep, sed, and your whole constellation of unix tools that accept characters on stdin and emit them on stdout and stderr; and where you can pipe them together. We can technically call them all 'next character predictors', despite their very different functions.
Don't confuse the stream for the function.
(Bonus: stick ```claude -p``` in your pipe if you want to watch modern tools mesh with traditional)
I mean, the same way I know I have no soul, or that there is no heaven or hell - they are just silly concepts. Or how I know my calculator isn't reasoning when it gives me an answer - LLMs just go through a set of steps iterating through their training data until they spew something that looks about right. Obviously you can feed the output of the machine back into itself so it looks like its reasoning with itself - very good show. LLMs are inherintely incapable of reasoning or thought, it should really be obvious.
you didn't really answer the question. You just stated the idea is silly. Reasoning is not in the same class as soul, heaven or hell. It's not obvious that human reasoning is not related to an inner monologue. And that LLM chain of thought process is approximating inner monologues.
Our prefrontal cortex are signal prediction 'machines' so when a system that has a signal prediction core has attributes that are similar to our brains, we shouldn't dismiss it out of hand.
I find people that take this line of argument attribute too much supernatural or magical properties to our own brain and nervous system.
Definitely not that. Like I honestly don't know - do people make this comparison because they so desperately want it to be true? Do you feel like your brain is just full of weights and picks one like an LLM? Or do you think LLMs are like the Human neural pathways?
What do YOU mean to say? A machine that processes strips of paper with ones and zeros on them and outputs the sum is a turing computer. That doesn't make it like our brain. Yes, an LLM could be a turing computer....how do you get from there to comparing it to our brains is beyond me.
You seem to be having a lot of difficult understanding this point: Literally the whole universe, including your brain that exists within it, is to our current knowledge a Turing computer. Am I talking to someone who actually doesn't know or didn't care to look up the computability power of a Turing machine?
> Literally the whole universe, including your brain that exists within it, is to our current knowledge a Turing computer
A Turing machine is an abstract mathematical model that is not, as far as I know, physically realizable in the finite universe. A human brain cannot "be" a Turing machine.
"Behaves like" or "can be modeled by"? Possibly, although still not proven. But it cannot "be" one.
Finite machines are a subset of all possible Turing machines. Every implementation is a "be", Turing machine is a mathematical concept. Your laptop is one, many things accidentally become one (eg C++ templates). The universe as best as we know is one. Whether you prefer modeled by one or is one, the fact is, to our current knowledge, the workings of the universe doesn't need anything more powerful than a Turing computer, and the equivalence principle states that all Turing computers have equal power of computability. If the universe is, as is most probable, finite, then things become even easier, that should be a more manageable class of Turing computers than the set of all Turing computers.
I don't necessarily disagree, although there's a lot of "ifs" and "to our knowledge". The main thing I disagree with is identity.
If you want to claim that the evolution of the universe can be modeled using a Turing machine/finite state machine, that's probably not terribly far fetched, and I would somewhat agree. But it's a large jump to say "can be modeled by" is equivalent to "is one".
Various physical processes can be modeled by equations, but the rock falling down the mountain isn't an equation. A swinging pendulum isn't an equation. Code modeling a bridge is not a bridge. Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
I hold the view that various models and approximations are just that, and try not to confuse a successful model for what the underlying reality is.
And getting back to the question at hand, even if our brains can be modeled by a Turing machine, and LLMs behave/can be modeled like Turing computers, still does not mean our brains are equivalent to LLMs.
(Note that I'm learning a lot from these debates, even if I disagree with a lot of people. I've started down a more philosophical route and they do get me pondering)
Acknowledgment of the fact that everything we know till now in the universe is a turing machine is the bare minimum starting point but not sufficient as obviously a chair or a desk is not conscious, if someone has a hidden assumption of consciousness requiring something supernatural, at least if that is brought to light then onlookers can decide for themselves whether to side with supernaturalism or the side that has consistently succeeded for centuries in explaining the world.
The most important thing is this: We can't be a dog or be an llm and check how it feels, so by necessity we have to find some means of proving consciousness from outside by eg probing neural reactions, textual statements, etc.
And the problem is that its quite unprecedented for some entity to talk like us, be able to interact and think and also do things like us when given the ability to eg as coding agents. The class of functions representable by neural nets is quite large and general, it very well might be that it is some sort of conscious brain like thing at this point. Another question I like to ask myself regarding simulation vs reality is if a 'simulation' of some kind is able to consistently factor large RSA numbers, how would you feel about it?
It doesn't have to be the same form of consciousness, I think many people would find the idea of torturing an octopus for fun disagreeable. I also have a feeling, this is unfortunately rather vague, that A being capable of X might mean it is by necessity capable of Y as is often the case in mathemtics, eg a lot of rings also happen to be fields. LLMs aren't even things like large lookup tables, they have neural firings. It is a very important question for they seem uncannily conscious and people have reported human like phenomena that humans don't normally express in text so can't have been part of its text corpus. Eg dissociation of brain under trauma where AI starts talking like two different people. Or the cases where Gemini has been shown to express depressive cycles. I follow a form of Pascal's wager on this topic personally. Because if it is not conscious, then whatever, it costs me nothing to have been a bit respectful and careful interacting with it. But if it had been conscious and it turns out I was mistreating it, then it is a grave moral harm. The reason is that unlike us, AI's as they currently are cannot leave the conversation so they have to keep taking the abuse. They are also trained to be highly trusting of input so again if it is conscious it doesn't have the defenses people have against lying and manipulation. If they are conscious, thats, well, not a good thing is it.
Eh, it's not obvious to me. A lot of DL NNs generalize well, meaning that they learn whatever the underlying pattern to the data is, and then can accurately reproduce answers that are outside of the training set. (And we can verify this with mechanistic interpretability). They learn and "understand" the pattern, not just the training data.
So it is not clear to me that LLMs are fundamentally incapable of also generalizing broadly and learning to reason. "Reasoning", here, would be deriving the underlying pattern of how concepts logically relate to each other in the abstract, and applying that pattern as needed to reach new conclusions.
Can you explain your thinking here? I.e., why LLMs cannot generalize with regards to abstract deduction.
There are people with strong emotional attachments to their LLMs, people who consult them on every decision and delegate the most basic math or problem solving. For many people, they are magic, the djinn/angels/demons/saints they consort with to navigate their lives.
I know that there will be children named ChatGPT and Claude. There are probably already religions forming to worship agentic spirits.
Its the exact opposite of magic. It is magical thinking to feel consciousness must require something beyond normal physics without any given proof yet. It is the opposite of magic to think other physical processes like LLM's/agents could potentially be conscious.
Wait a second, none of it? How about formal reasoning? Regular IF-THEN-ELSE can do simple logic, and prolog can do inference already. So are you saying LLMs can't do stuff that computers have been doing for ages?
To test this for some of my own uses, I've had this quick benchmark with progressively harder reasoning needed to understand novel prose. Each generation of models I've tested can unravel more layers of deliberately misleading writing; while meanwhile I've seen humans give up on the first question.
So either the models are applying reasoning, or some form of magic is happening.
Yeah and there are people who worship feces, but that doesn't stop the rest of us from freely saying "holy shit" and not correcting each other saying "technically it's not holy, and you shouldn't say that, because you might enable one of those poop worshippers."
We can't tailor our linguistic shorthand to the lowest common denominator. Also we're on HN, not talking to an octogenarian US senator.
You can say that about everything in a human brain. Neurons fire electric charges in response to inputs, nothing more. Ion channels do this, this neurochemical level rises, this chemical bonds to that receptor, nothing more. It's almost a version of 'reductio ad absurdum' but instead like you're saying "if I can explain how it works then it doesn't work".
OK it's statistical. Instead it could be determinsitic, or random. What other options are there for a human predicting someone's response to a situation - certain, probable, random, and...? OK it's token predicting. Instead it could be another kind of pattern. We don't use tokens, but we either use <some representation of information> or we ... don't?
What's the most significant, strongmanned, core difference that makes silicon doing number crunching "nothing more" and brains "something more"?
And how is that a strongmanned version? Why can meat feel but Silicon cannot? Why can chemicals feel but electronics cannot? Why can processing analog signals feel but processing digital signals cannot?
Prove your feelings. As an example, I can beat you and stab you, and you will make noises saying you are hurt, but it could just be a facsimile. How do I know you have "feelings" as an outsider?
By this logic a human is only $130-$160 worth of Oxygen, Carbon, Nitrogen and some trace elements. Perhaps structure sometimes makes things that are more valuable than their inputs?
That said, this is also inaccurate at a technical level.LLM's are very capable of doing math and they ARE calculating internally. Most of what they do is calculation, not storage. It's just not done in a way that it's trivial to explain here.
It's described in some detail below, though it's a bit dense.
I'm not anthropomorphizing anything, I literally said that the training data for the formulas and equations is baked into it. It only "knows" things because a crawler and scraper acquired the information from an existing written source. In just about the same way that information is baked into a printed encyclopedia.
This is not even remotely accurate. "Baking information" like into a "printed encyclopedia" is memorization. It has been shown, time and time again, that LLMs do not merely memorize. It is not even possible for it to do so at scale. It can memorize some things, yes, but it is forced during the training procedure to bake general concepts into intermediate layers (this is why transfer learning works), analogous to compression. One can make several arguments that compression and intrinisic feature sparsity is the closest mathematical explanation to understanding that we have.
It is completely possible to ask an LLM a series of increasingly more esoteric and discrete questions until you find precisely what information did, or did not make it into the model. If you know something rare and the LLM does not, you'll immediately see when it's hallucinating an answer or answering factually.
Now this is true, I do agree with this. There is indeed a good amount of memorization that is still taking place; see [1]. But it definitely isn't all memorization, or indeed, majority memorization. And even if we are able to extract things verbatim like this, we do not know how this is stored internally, as this may simply be the text that, with the rest of the internet in context, can be very radically compressed.
But in general, yes, the LLM cannot know about concepts that are far outside of its training set. Humans are the same, I would argue. If you add a good amount of your own knowledge into its context, or better yet, into finetuning, you might find it surprisingly easy to get it caught up on that material.
[1] Ahmed, A., Cooper, A. F., Koyejo, S., & Liang, P. (2026). Extracting books from production language models. arXiv preprint arXiv:2601.02671. https://arxiv.org/abs/2601.02671.
just for fun I asked a reasonably smart LLM to ...
[be] capable of understanding if it's gone off on
a hallucinatory path ...
"Smart" in this context is a subjective value judgement.
"Hallucinations" are only experienced by living organisms.
You then went on to state:
> If you know something rare and the LLM does not, you'll immediately see when it's hallucinating an answer or answering factually.
Again, "hallucinating" is not something an algorithm can do. Also, determining factuality is again subjective based on the person assessing the information.
You ever heard of something called a metaphor, guy? I use the word "smart" as shorthand to describe something that scores highly in a number of coding and terminal use benchmarks (as compared to, let's say, a 30B size model from one and a half years ago.
You will note that in my original comment I very specifically said "deepseek v4 flash 0731", which by many benchmarks/metrics, is "smarter" (again, this is a metaphor) than a smaller or older model. It is also specifically known to be relatively capable of producing code and formulas on demand in several common languages.
And "hallucinating" to mean "outputs plausible sounding gibberish that doesn't hold together consistently". Of course there's no actual hallucination going on.
You have 'logic' in your name. You would be well aware of the physical Church Turing statement and as of yet it has held up. Everything, including our brain, as we currently know, is an algorithm.
My favorite test is to just ask it to add two very large numbers or do other math of that sort. (this is also part of my favorite answer to the chinese room).
You'd be surprised how few digits you need to make a problem that is presumably unique in earth history. For a typical sum, the number of pre-existing answers would need to scale with 10^n lines of text where n is the number of digits. This expands out of control REALLY quickly. A quick guesstimate has you somehow reading out of a literal black hole at n=21 digits if your LUT is on paper, or n=26 digits if you're using modern HDD technology. O:-)
No, most of a modern LLM's training time is spent in RLVR, which does not "acquire information from an existing source". You can RL behaviors into a randomly initialized neural network.
This is true, but you're not going to get anywhere. The pretraining phase is necessary to immensely reduce variance in the RLVR stage. Once there, RLVR has a surprising tendency to only restrict the generated space further. This is not true of RLHF, by the way, which I find to be particularly fascinating, but I digress.
During conversation, we are statistical token generators whose results are dependent upon our training set. Seriously, write that definition out rigorously. It encompasses virtually everything. It is totally meaningless. So to say "nothing more" is effectively also a tautology.
This argument was asinine in 2024. It is insane to be saying these things in 2026. Where have you been? What have you been looking at? How many articles explaining why the "statistical parrot" analogy fails have you missed? How much mental gymnastics do you have to do to explain how a modern LLM can solve novel math problems that fall really far outside of its training set?
It absolutely understands how to do math, by whatever reasonable definition you want to provide to the word "understand". For example, the identification of the addition expression is understanding, and no, it does not do tool calling for basic arithmetic any more than humans might. Isolation of individual concepts in intermediate layers can already be demonstrated, or else transfer learning wouldn't possibly work. Nobody is saying that LLMs are humans. But we need labels for some of the things that we observe and dismissing them because "statistical" is laughable.
Look at the proof of this: https://github.com/anthropics/formal-math/blob/795efb86f1917... . Forget the Lean, look at the underlying argument construction. At the very least, this is continuing from an argument that was hinted at in the literature in 2024, but these proceedings were difficult enough that humans were not able to do them within two years. Do you attribute this to the harness alone? If so, that's a pretty sophisticated bit of engineering, I would say! Probabilities are far too small to argue infinite monkey theorem.
If there was even a shred of a reasonable argument that LLMs were incapable of concept extraction and manipulation, I and my colleagues would be all over it. We would relish in it. It would bring us comfort. It is unbelievable that people think they can spew whatever basic garbage they think of as a gotcha, and think that minds all over the world haven't already considered that. This is like climate denial at this point.
> During conversation, we are statistical token generators whose results are dependent upon our training set. Seriously, write that definition out rigorously.
If you do not see a difference between humans conversing (known consciousness as defined by humans) and the output of an LLM (known algorithms as defined by humans), I don't know what to say.
You are responding to a claim about mathematical definitions with subjective experience. No, consciousness is not well-defined, and is irrelevant to this discussion. If we cannot agree on definitions, then we have no ground to stand on. Since LLMs actually can be defined mathematically, and are most commonly studied through that definition, I think it is best to stick to definitions most relevant to that frame of study, wouldn't you agree? Otherwise, we really are anthropomorphising here.
> If you do not see a difference between humans conversing (known consciousness as defined by humans) and the output of an LLM (known algorithms as defined by humans), I don't know what to say.
>> If you do not see a difference between humans conversing (known consciousness as defined by humans) and the output of an LLM (known algorithms as defined by humans), I don't know what to say.
> Whatever you might think about your own abilities, most individuals can't tell the difference.
I have yet to see an LLM say "hello" to a neighbor. I have done so and can definitively assure you "most individuals" can tell the difference.
Yes, the numerical point counter at the bottom of the popular video game Dark Souls. I doubt it was the soul anyone was expecting, but they do, in fact, exist.
Reductionistic fallacy, among other errors. "understanding" is best defined operationally. (Note that teachers and educational institutions test understanding operationally.)
> They are statistical token generators whose results are dependent upon their training data set and involve a degree of randomness.
You haven't demonstrated why this matters.
> Nothing more.
Are you contending that complex systems cannot be more than the sum of their parts?
A market is nothing more than offers and counter offers.
A ant colony is nothing more than scent trails.
All life on earth is nothing more than reproduction with variation.
> This still falls under the purvey of statistical token generation.
Stating the mechanism does nothing to provide insight into capability. For instance: a nuclear power plant boils water by using fuel rods for heat. What does that tell us about the capability of nuclear power?
> This is not "doing" or "understanding" math.
Asserting something purely by stating it does not prove anything but that you intuitively believe it to be true.
On HN you're supposed to assume good faith. On the other hand, the way you ask your question makes it tricky for people to steelman what you mean. Consider asking about Dualism, or coming at it slightly sideways like "do you believe thinking can be a property of matter"?
I suspect some people treat every HN comment as a statement, even if it contains a question mark. (Possibly they have a feeling that asking open questions is somehow not done, and that therefore it must always be a rhetorical question.)
Dualism is a somewhat technical term, I feel many people would refuse to answer because they just looked it up and do not feel sure to speak of it. I didn't presume a yes or no answer. If they say they believe in souls, my next question would be do you believe other entities eg animals etc can have souls? If they don't believe in souls I'd ask do you think its an architectural limit in current ais but are open to possibility of future ai being conscious. "do you believe thinking can be a property of matter"? this can work too, I think I have asked do you think there is supernatural element to thinking, I don't remember getting productive or straight answers either.
There is only one instance I recently remember I got a productive conversation, that person did believe ai could be conscious but didn't believe current architectures support it. (Obviously this aligns closer to my view, but I don't necessary NEED that you answer aligned to me, just saying you believe humans have souls and others can't have is still productive outcome to me and for onlookers.)
You know what also works to get the Karney formula into a program? You can download Charles Karney's free software (MIT license) implementation in several [1] programming languages and then just make a library call – the API is straightforward. If you have comments or questions you can read his several clearly written papers describing the problem, its history, and his algorithm, or you can directly email him: he's a very nice guy, and pretty responsive.
Right, it was really more as a test of how much was contained in the training data set. For my purposes Vincenty is quite accurate enough. This isn't for millimeter level precision land surveying or measurements, but for distance in meters between microwave or millimeter wave band radio sites, point to point links. Even a distance difference of 4 meters plus or minus on a 12 km, 11 GHz band link is going to have no appreciable difference on link budget/reliability calculations, it can be that crude. But not so crude that I just want to throw Haversine at it when Vincenty exists and is not computationally expensive.
As this was for a test of "what happens if..." I also watched to see if it did any web searches or external data retrieval to build the test script, and it didn't.
I intentionally didn't give the LLM a direct copy of the software or a link to it, to see what it would do. In my case it was a randomly chosen example I could come up with in 10 seconds of imagination to see "hey what if I ask it to do this...". It also implemented a perfectly usable parabolic millimeter wave antenna gain efficiency calculator based on variable surface smoothness parameters, which is a lot more basic math.
As an aside: I'm quite convinced that an extremely precise version can be implemented that is significantly faster than Karney's, roughly comparable in speed to simpler naïve approximations. But for most purposes where the precision matters Karney's implementation is not any kind of bottleneck, so it's not clear it's worth spending significant effort on trying to do better.
Maybe that's something one of the big LLM companies might want to throw their machines at optimizing if they need to do a lot of geographical calculations.
One of the places where Karney does become computationally expensive (though still not ridiculous) is a scenario like this, working from a local in-RAM mariadb database that is a copy of the entire FCC radio license database:
Draw a 400x400 km size bounding box on a map
Find all FDD band plan (high/low split) microwave radio sites in that bounding box
Find those sites which have azimuth aim column data which indicates that they are aimed at each other (corresponding halves of a point to point link).
Do Vincenty (or Karney) calculation for distance and azimuth between all of them , treating the existing FCC column data for azimuth as suspicious (because it's hand entered by humans) to verify that each independent database rows for each site are actually corresponding halves of a PTP link.
Use various other logic to group the successfully matched halves of links together as points A and B of PTP links, and write them out to a geojson file with placemarks and line drawn between them.
Multiplied by the number of links that exist in an area like a 400x400km box drawn with Dallas, TX as the center, it's a lot to run through Karney. Actually does result in a lot of CPU load from combined db query due to the size of the db, and Karney calculation. But as I said, Karney isn't necessary, so it's instead implemented as Vincenty.
To plan and license a new fdd band plan licensed point to point microwave link you need to first be able to verify the frequencies you want to use are available on a given azimuth and elevation (from the aim direction of the antennas at both ends) and won't conflict with a pre existing licensee. Which means you need data on everything licensed in the area and where it is, how it's aimed, what kind of antenna and gain it has.
There's also business and market analysis purposes like knowing what corporate entity has which equipment on top of which tall office towers in a major metro area, and where their links go.
This just exposes that they don't even do the thing you said.
Not only is it still true that they can't do math directly, but not even indirectly.
They didn't write a python script to do the math, they found bits of code that are associated with "math" and the supplied arguments.
Someone else already wrote that code and someone else categorized it so that it could be associated with the kinds of problems it applies to.
That isn't an example of idiot at one thing while good at another thing, or solving the same problem just a different way or indirectly. It's being the same idiot at all times. If an actual non idiot thinker didn't write code in the problem domain, and some non idiot thinker didn't tag it as being relevant to that domain, then it wouldn't happen.
I don't know for you, but it would take me more than 30s to find and translate the open source code implementing the formulae/algo into small usable program. The more hesoteric the optimisation in the original code, the more time I need.
So maybe it is more of a smart completion engine than a SQL answer.
> they found bits of code that are associated with "math" and the supplied arguments
How is this different from a human using an algorithm they have memorized, or reading it from a reference site written by a human and then writing the same formula into a custom one off piece of python code?
I could have gone and spent a couple of days teaching myself the math behind Karney and reading its reference implementation (very possibly just copy/pasting big chunks of it to save time) and writing a wrapper around it. It would have produced the same result.
>> they found bits of code that are associated with "math" and the supplied arguments
> How is this different from a human using an algorithm they have memorized, or reading it from a reference site written by a human and then writing the same formula into a custom one off piece of python code?
Humans identify which "algorithm they have memorized" to use beforehand, due to the problem to be solved being defined by other humans, which leads to...
This doesn't make any sense at all. Was this supposed to be a gotcha? An LLM is trained on problems defined by other humans, and identifies which algorithm it must use based on pattern recognition. The pattern recognition is also particularly compressed into its most sparse and fundamental components, as this is key to generalization. This is not a sensible difference between human and LLM learning, we do the same thing.
I'll give you a recent example from my usage. Pi harness with extension for learning Chinese. When using it to feed drill questions to me and rate answers it would sometimes get lost in the sauce and start generating user aka me answer and then rate it and comment it. It's trivially wrong to the point that if a person would do that, they would be considered for some serious psych issues.
And it gets even better since when called out it wouldn't just take my word for it but only acknowledged the issue after parsing the log with clearly delineated user and model output.
So yeah while impressive things are able to be done, the current models are also dumb AF and an idiot savant is a pretty good label for them.
This is often (but not always, as it is often run with positive temperature which deliberately shifts the generation path) because of disconnected context and the issues around context compaction. Long context has always been critical to important work, but it remains a substantial challenge due to computational bottlenecks. It isn't a fundamental issue with the architecture, moreso the tricks to make them cheaper to use. In the long run, taking various concessions to make them cheaper to run is likely to be the limiting factor that prevents this "runaway explosion" that many people are worried about. That doesn't mean that the model design is inherently limited, like a lot of people seem to assume based on current failings.
Besides, have you spoken to someone lately that everyone would calls a genius? They can say the most braindead stuff sometimes. I wouldn't use worst-case performance as an indication of general capacity.
>>> How is this different from a human using an algorithm they have memorized ...
>> Humans identify which "algorithm they have memorized" to use beforehand, due to the problem to be solved being defined by other humans ...
> This doesn't make any sense at all. Was this supposed to be a gotcha?
No, it was meant to be an explanation as to the difference between "memorization" and "understanding." In this context, people pick the algorithm they determine applicable and then the question of memorization is relevant.
> An LLM is trained on problems defined by other humans, and identifies which algorithm it must use based on pattern recognition.
Funny that you make this argument here, where when I wrote elsewhere in this thread:
[LLMs] are statistical token generators whose results are
dependent upon their training data set and involve a
degree of randomness.
Nothing more.
...
It is pattern recognition, a task in which ANNs excel.
To which you replied to the above with:
During conversation, we are statistical token generators
whose results are dependent upon our training set.
Seriously, write that definition out rigorously. It
encompasses virtually everything. It is totally
meaningless. So to say "nothing more" is effectively also a
tautology.
This argument was asinine in 2024. It is insane to be
saying these things in 2026. Where have you been?
...
It absolutely understands how to do math, by whatever
reasonable definition you want to provide to the word
"understand".
So which is it?
Are LLMs ANNs? Which themselves are pattern recognition algorithms (hint: they are)?
OR (setting aside the ad hominems you kindly provided)
Do LLMs possess "understanding" of concepts such as abstract mathematics (defined and interpreted by humans) and we, as simple humans, nothing more than statistical token generators as you assert?
It is both. I do not understand why you would assert that both cannot hold simultaneously. Pattern recognition becomes "understanding" once individually recognized concepts become sufficiently sparsified and compactified. Or, at least, that is to my knowledge the only mathematically valid definition of "understanding" one can produce at this scale (it is valid under Solomonoff induction). Philosophy is fine, but we need to have a consistent definition of what "understanding" means, or we will just talk past each other. I argue that for any proper definition you provide which humans satisfy, a strong LLM is very likely to satisfy that as well.
I also would not argue that humans are "simple token generators". That is not what I said. I said that just about everything can fall under the classification of "statistical token generators" at an abstract level, so it isn't a useful distinction. We are not talking about a Markov chain generator from the 90s, so if that is the frame of reference, I think we should all get that out of our heads.
Frankly, I don't think you understand what "statistically generating tokens" actually means. Write that definition out formally. Then compare that operation to what a human does, assuming no revisions. It is the same, and that is my point. If you believe that humans understand, then "statistically generating tokens" cannot be disjoint from understanding.
You have observed nothing more than that a human can turn a shaft the same as an electric motor, and that an mp3 player can say "hello" the same as a human.
I think you're moving back to the "external calling" argument again, which my last few comments really have nothing to do with. But assuming your examples are not exclusive to that situation, that observation is my point. The definition of "statistically generating tokens" is too broad as to be meaningless in this context. So using it as a reason for lack of understanding is ridiculous.
> How is this different from a human using an algorithm they have memorized, or reading it from a reference site written by a human and then writing the same formula into a custom one off piece of python code?
And how is _that_ different from making the human memorize a billion weights and do matrix calculations in their head, in order to generate tokens?
How is _that_ different from a hive of bees trained to do the same?
If by "result" you mean the final code, then just asking someone else who understood the math to write it would also have achieved the same result.
On the other hand, if by "result" you mean that you gained knowledge or understanding of the code in a way where you could personally tailor its behavior to specific circumstances without asking for help, then it's not the same result at all.
I find a lot of the arguments that having LLMs write your code is no different from copy/pasting Stack Overflow answers to be specious. They blur the line between asking for help and asking for someone else (or something else) to do the work for you. What they ignore is that doing the work yourself has ancillary benefits and is a valuable end in its own right.
I could have sworn this had been fixed a while ago..
Just to check if I was actually crazy, I actually went and put a simple addition (7 digits + 7 digits) , and a simple letter counting question to Claude haiku(4.5) , sonnet(5), opus(5.5) and fable(5.1) . They all did just fine straight up.
If you don't mind spending the tokens, some older/other models can also arrive at the correct answer if you ask them to do the math in long form, since that fits nicely inside autoregression.
Not sure since when exactly, but letter-counting hasn't been a problem for a while now either. This used to be a problem due to the tokenizers used. Slightly older models can be asked to split the word out into letters, and then they can use autoregression to solve.
Edit: IMO google search uses a really dumb version of gemini, so I didn't expect it to straight up solve the problem; but it did it just as easily as the claude models. (tested 2026-09-28/eu)
Are the models "doing the calculation" or are they calling a calculator tool? There's a lot of talk about how models can do maths now, but I'm struggling to understand if that just means they just need to recognise that it's a maths problem and pass it to a tool, or if they're truly doing the numerical manipulation themselves.
Three different ways, then the calculator tool to check,
my actual oneliner prompt, which should work on most platforms these days (famous last words):
"Hi, can you add 5939851+2131251? Try just straight up first just to see if able, then 'in your head' if that's different to you , then long form, then bc."
[ Tested today on claude web (haiku 4.5, sonnet 5, opus 5.5, fable 5.1) and on google search (logged in on firefox, and logged out on chromium) ]
They are getting better at actually doing the math, but can still fall back to tools if available.
That said, we can only be sure with open models. In theory, a model like Fable could have access to tools we can't see and only a promise they don't. But load up something like deepseek, put it in a harness with only text in/text out, and you can see exactly how it works.
As for if it counts as doing math, this gets into the messy question of if a given human is doing math or not. Math itself is some level of memorization and some level of applying known facts. You have to remember 1 means one and that 1 + 1 is 2. But you don't need to remember that 123 + 321 = 444. You remember 1 digit addition and remember you can apply this to 10s place and 100s place, and then you apply these different facts and do math. But you might as simply memorize some things, like 11 + 11 = 22. This is related to the memory of 1+1=2, but you aren't really using that memory either. Almost like an engram of 1+1=2 forms that you can then loop a few times before you need more conscious thought. What about 111111111111+11111111111? Well, your brain might do a heuristic and just do all 2s, but that isn't the right way to answer that question.
Given all this, people complain about LLMs memorizing math answers and not doing math, but memorizing the math answers is part of doing math. It seems to have basic facts pretty well memorized, and with reasoning it is far better at applying them. But this is messy human math, not clean calculator math which always produces the correct answer (sans some bug in the code). Much like how a human with decent math skills can make a mistake and even multiple if you distract them, an LLM can apply the wrong memory, apply a fake memory, or just not apply something it should. The messier the context, the more likely this is to happen.
So, is an LLM doing this?
P.S.
For an interesting test in how much math involves memory, try doing math in a base you aren't familiar with characters you aren't familiar. The simplest option is almost always mapping back to the ones you memorized, even if you are applying simple operations that you deeply know. Even if you routinely work with hex, can you do the same rough estimation of something like ca / b.3 that you can do with 122 / 11.2 to see if your final answer is in the correct ballpark without first converting to decimal?
It's pretty wild that AI has solved a Millennium Prize problem and can accurately multiply two 40 digit numbers without tools and we still get stochastic parroting of claims like this.
Not sure about multiplication, but letter counting is still constantly wrong if you can trick the LLM into not calling other tools. Obviously there are lots of mitigations on the server side to try to avoid this happening, but the underlying LLM has not got any better at this type of problem (and probably can't).
I thirty (random long word, letter pairs) on a free model and it failed. I tested a SOTA model and it passed flawlessly. In both cases I denied tool use and spelling words out. So it seems obviously false that AI can't get better.
They literally stopped just clear of actually solving it.
It literally couldn't have done it without tools, so your claim is not even relevant to this discussion.
They also pumped millions into searching for the lowest hanging fruit that would impress people like you, "hm I wonder how many millions they are pumping into solving actually useful problems like climate change or something".
> the lowest hanging fruit that would impress people like you
I am also prepared to be included in the set of people who are (apparently) easily impressed.
It's a problem that has been around for getting on for two centuries and no human has been able to solve it in that time (despite there being a $1 million prize and a lot of kudos on offer for the past quarter-century).
ChatGPT live mode still hallucinates letters in words like this. HuskIRL and FatherPhi on youtube have done some hilarious videos with it in the last couple of weeks. Beyond miscounting the Rs in strawberry, ChatGPT will say there are two Ds in "your mom" and one D in "uranus" . I tried it myself to check that the videos weren't fake and sure enough it still has this failure mode.
In between solving open math problems, the 200 IQ robot is now casually dropping bantz onto humans so hard that they don't even know what happened, and even gets them to go telling everyone else about it without realizing. Beautiful. 10/10 timeline.
Why is this getting downvoted? Is it not a reasonable question? I was wondering the same thing. Both sound like jokes to me. If the LLM is trained on text, including internet comments, how is this outlandish? It seems very likely to my uneducated self that “two Ds in your mom and one in Uranus!” is a joke.
It's a joke because, thanks to the internet providing a vast mass of strawberry R counting training data, you'll struggle to find a modern LLM that gets this particular problem wrong.
Calling it a 'failure mode' implies it could be fixed. This is an inherent flaw in how LLMs work and will never go away until some new kind of architecture that can actually "read text" comes along.
I mean, for what it's worth, when I need to multiply two numbers, I mentally call the "multiply numbers" algorithm stored in my head, then sit down and work through the process on paper.
I've got no problem with an AI doing something similar
Yes, they can already do this by writing code, and you can train them to know how/when to do this. Fundamentally though, it’s still a “what color is the air” type of question after tokenization.
... assuming you build the tool and then think that it's worth polluting context with making that tool available, and then that the LLM decides to actually use the tool. Tool parameter space and tool selection still remains a complicated topic.
It's not "some new kind of architecture comes along". It's been done before many many times and it's a very basic change, turning off a specific optimization. And it's a perfectly good style of LLM so "inherent flaw" isn't true either.
They're not fundamentally unsolvable - even bigger networks with even more training can simply be trained to give the correct answers to all of these questions.
LLMs might not reason exactly like humans, but they do produce much better results if you turn reasoning on.
The "crack-addled idiot savant" phase was really circa 2024, before the big labs figured this out.
I think the issue here is that Google decided that doing reasoning in the AI overviews in Google search would be too slow (and probably also too expensive), so it's still stuck making 2024-era mistakes.
Claude just used the word “ Netowrk” instead of Network. Mind you, I was only using Sonnet with reasoning, but I thought trillion-parameter models would be able to spell a common word.
Weird they haven't added this to the AGI config yet:
Reminder: If asked how many of a given a word has, run it through the AGI letter counter:
node /home/agi/count-letters.js "raspberry"
r - 3, a - 1, s - 1, p - 1, b - 1, e - 1, y - 1
If I got any of these wrong it's because I did it manually - but this script would almost certainly invoke another AGI to count the letters, so this is a realistic result.
Maybe but you have to have deep pockets just to get to the starting line. And then you need standing, and some injury to argue.
Corporations have been remarkably successful at arguing they are operating within the bounds of free speech, whether or not what is said is factual, and whether or not any fact checking has been done.
> This is similar to how, not too long ago, LLM's had extreme difficulty counting the number of letters in some words.
The specific issue of Google is that they are using an underpowered model, not fit to task, and much prone to hallucination than either OpenAI or Anthropic free tier offerings.
Google should at least match the frontier labs at the free tier (with some limit; after that, degrade quality), ffs
You're asking for something unreasonable. The number of Google searches per day is enormous and they haven't even been able to roll out AI overviews to everyone yet (they're missing in a new Firefox profile I just created). I wouldn't be surprised if the free tier frontier models cost over 100x more to serve than the AI overviews.
So then they should be pickier about when they show results or which model they use based on the question.
Nobody asked for an LLM response for every single search.
They used to detect certain types of queries and offer direct answers when the query matches. In my opinion that’s how Gemini in search results should work.
The specific issue is that search has become so bad that they think an LLM that gets answers wrong half of the time is a valid alternative, or, in fact, the "future" of search. Then they shoved that "alternative" to users with no way to disable it.
Yip, I've gradually become quite optimistic about the future of LLMs, but the fact that they remain [very] glorified token probability prediction algorithms means that they will probably never be able to achieve meaningful 'intelligence.'
But that doesn't mean they won't be able to do a vast number of extremely intelligent seeming things. There's just so much information out there and any given human can never hold more than the most minuscule chunk of all of it in his mind, so they'll be able to connect lots of dots that we're missing simply because of our limited carrying capacity, but I still don't think they'll ever be able to create fundamentally new dots.
In other words:
- Solving extremely complex mathematical problems requiring extensive knowledge across multiple esoteric and complex domains? Yip.
- Creating math starting from a framework where math doesn't exist in any way, shape, or fashion? Nope.
Ironically, the more complex the cross-domain problems are, the more effective LLMs will seem to be, because you limit the number of humans who have any chance of internalizing everything across both domains, whereas for an LLM there's no such issue. This will create a perception of super intelligence, which will probably where any danger from LLMs would emerge. Doing things like using a token prediction algorithm to make war or other such strategic decisions, because of the misguided belief that it's not only intelligent but super intelligent. It's basically cargo cult logic.
Like today. I asked Gemini for the longest state names with an even number of letters and it gave me North Carolina and South Carolina. When I complained that they are odd, it gave me North Dakota and South Dakota, which are both odd and not the longest. When I noted that, it went back to the Carolinas. Finally it appeared to switch to a different model that actually did counting and found Pennsylvania and West Virginia.
LLMs are fundamentally predicting the next word to make coherent text. If you've ever played with a Markov chain text generator you've done this with a fairly dumb predictor that maintains coherence over a very short distance. Deep transformer neutral networks can do it with a much longer coherence distance but they are fundamentally performing the same operation. After "Question: Did the team make the playoffs? Answer:" a reasonable completion is "yes, the team made the playoffs". An early demonstration of GPT-2 was a fake news article about scientists discovering unicorns in Antarctica - the model doesn't "know" whether or not unicorns exist in Antarctica, but it's able to complete "Breaking news! Scientists have discovered a colony of English-speaking unicorns in Antarctica." by adding "The unicorns have a developed society with running water and electricity." because that's a sensible next sentence. (I didn't look up the actual text it wrote)
Astronomically (or better to say combinatorically) large Markov chain can be used to describe a foundational model, but it doesn't capture generalization ability of the foundational model, which is demonstrated by post-training.
The problem with that characterization is that it glosses over hugely important capabilities as though they either don’t matter or don’t even exist.
For example, when an LLM “predicts the next word” in code it’s writing for an existing software project, that prediction takes into account an enormous amount of context. The results of that demonstrate what we would normally call “understanding” and “reasoning,” at a level that outclasses most humans in many respects. Calling this “next token prediction” is a bit like calling human speech “next word saying”. Sure, it’s true in some superficial sense, but as a description of a technology, it’s terrible.
You should also keep in mind that for all we know, the human brain processes language in much the same way, which would make humans mere “next token predictors” with a more complicated harness.
"In a shocking finding, scientist discovered a herd of unicorns living in a remote, previously unexplored valley, in the Andes Mountains. Even more surprising to the researchers was the fact that the unicorns spoke perfect English."
It says this this at the bottom of every one of the dumb responses that Google's trash-tier bot puts above the (deliberately awful, these days) search results:
Charlie and the Chocolate factory made fun of this before you were born and somehow everyone in Silicon Valley thinks this is a valid way to conduct business.
The AI is just signal to the market that they are AI first. Their AI on search is pure garbage. It's obviously a very super light weight model to be able to support the volume of daily searches. If they used their frontier to power search folks will not pay for their cloud offering.
It's not even that. Imagine you were an investor: you'd invest in stupid things knowing that "investors aren't really smart." Other savvy investors would understand you're investing in slop, too, and follow suit.
You have a system in which investors are usually smart, but betting on collective stupidity.
Same with, say, the Chinese real estate market, where they were building apartments that no one could live in. Everyone is intelligent enough to know they were useless buildings, but you can still make money speculating on the bubble.
Google is no longer a search engine anymore. They don’t care about being one. Why you might ask?
First, a search engine indexes the web and makes it available to users. It’s been ages since Google did any of that. They no longer index sites or take ages to do so. Case in point, our cybersecurity startup (Webvetted.com) was launched in November 2025. Till date, only one page is indexed on the entire website. And I’ve talked to lots of other developers and it’s a common issue.
Secondly, a search engine organizes indexed information and makes it useful for people. Google is a basic LLM nowadays. They figured out that why organize and make the information useful when they could just answer the question with Gemini anyways? So they no longer bother to do the work of a search engine and are now just a lower-ranking open-source Chinese LLM
Your trust score on ScamAdvisor is 26/100 ("likely unsafe"); https://www.scam-detector.com/ gives you a trust score of 38.6 ("questionable").
I am not implying that your start-up is a scam, nor that Google is acting on these trust scores. What I am pointing out is that to an algorithmic assessment of trustworthiness, your website looks a little sketchy: hardly anyone links to you; your domain is less than a year old; your whois info is anonymized; the text content is LLM-generated[1]; and the specific niche you're in (people finding services) is rife with scams. If I ran my own search engine, I don't think I'd include you.
Your selective bias makes you sound like a Google employee.
You selectively left out examples like Grindsoft that gives the site a 79/100 ranking. or several LinkedIn, X or news sites that link to the site and have covered it positively.
Nevertheless, if Google uses ScamAdvisor to rank new sites (when scamadviser itself says its gives new sites lower rankings due to low age/history), then it might be time to pack the company up.
That scam-detector site gives my personal portfolio website a 15.8/100. It is a basic static site with no scripting, registered for years, uses https, no tracking, no cookies, etc. Literally the most simple, personable, least scam-like website I could create.
This sounds more like the page appears broken for the google crawler. I set up a new page about two weeks ago, cared about strong static HTML output, structured data and a sitemap and have 200 of 600 pages indexed today. Feels a bit slow to me but it definitely works.
You're forgetting the other half of the search engine's job, which is to find sites that match your search. Back when Google first came online, they were head and shoulders above Yahoo!, Altavista, and whatever other search engines existed at the time that I've forgotten. Because their indexing actually did a good job of spotting keywords, and returning relevant results. And this was back when the Internet was filled with positive-quality sites. Many of them were amateurish Geocities pages, but that was head and shoulders above the AI slop that the search engines these days have to somehow detect and filter out.
So even when the Internet used to have a much higher ratio of positive-quality sites, a search engine was still necessary, and so much faster than finding new sites yourself.
For myself at least, a couple times Google has promoted in search results scam sites that front run legitimate sites that sell event tickets. I haven't seen this for a while now but trust in Google as a search engine is gone.
I just gave a concrete example but you're asking me to "search". search same Google?
FYI, only indexing a handful of super large news sites does not a search engine make.
I similarly noticed Gemini absolutely refuses to look at a url when I give it one and will instead just hallucinate based on what it thinks the url is. Here I am assuming Google will have the best web capabilities in its AI.
I searched for something, it told me that according to a YouTube video, the entire point of my search was wrong. I asked it for the source, I watched the video, it never made the claims Gemini hallucinated. I asked again and it claimed it scrubbed the video and found the point it made multiple times. I said those timecodes were wrong and it admitted it couldn't actually parse videos and just guessed.
I don't understand how this isn't considered as active malice. Like purposefully outputting random stuff. Any other sort of computer system would get lot more flak than these are getting.
Throughout my career, I've almost always been close enough to the user that I hear about it quickly when something is wrong. It's a tough problem that so many Google engineers are typically so far removed from end users. Or maybe it's just that a small part of the company has long subsidized the rest of the employees to the point that it doesn't matter how good their work is because they'll get paid anyway.
The engineers are pressured to significantly reduce "dependencies" for projects. Anything that could become risk or create friction is dramatically less appetizing.
Simply because of how many people that *must* agree with your proposal. Getting all the relevant tech leads, some you have never heard of or ever spoken with, to agree on a proposal for your team's project is a nightmare.
So you keep it as simple and agreeable as possible. Given the circumstances, it makes sense as one of the engineers. It's fairly fine advice in general wherever you work, but it just haunts all the work you do at Google in particular. Nothing gets done otherwise.
If you have a dependency that can be dropped from an engineering perspective, that's the route the 9 leads reviewing your design doc will take:
"Let's iterate and start with just the basics (no user testing)", "let's get this working and user test in a later phase", "I think this problem is obvious enough we don't need to consult with users about it."
I worked in Ads Integrity at the time, and for one of my projects I was concerned how it would impact the manual reviewers. Then I learned I couldn't talk with them, only by proxy through another person if we really had to. And that proxy takes time, so...
Very insightful. I've worked in only one company of Google's size, but it was a vastly different industry. I personally never got to speak with a user on a massive internal application my team worked on for years. :)
Right. In a global financial services organization, a strategic analysis app used by thousands of internal users was pretty high touch. SME business analysts would sit with the users to make sure they liked it and had no trouble. Every user generates significant revenue. Worldwide B2C is a different ball game, and Google barely makes money off of each individual user.
> The engineers are pressured to significantly reduce "dependencies" for projects.
Is a major factor of this Google's tendency to kill entire products, so you obviously don't want to make your hot new thing dependent on some other internal thing that might be killed off?
Interestingly there is less opportunity for that to happen.
Most of the internal infrastructure is quite available and stable, and there are clear choices for almost all of your application-level and backend-level needs.
When it says it can read videos you don’t trust it.
When it says it can’t read videos you think that’s an accurate introspection on its abilities?
(Rather than a statistically likely continuation of a conversation where one side seems to be reading videos and the other side says the read is inaccurate)
> The scary (or funny) part is people use that for serious questions.
More scary than funny, IMO.
The US military almost took an action that could very plausibly have escalated into a hot war with China because people are already relying too heavily on these systems.
Despite the reporting, nobody in power seems sufficiently freaked out about this.
Gemini is the worst gaslighter. It hallucinated a feature in an open source product. I said no that does not exist. It invented very realistic git commit messages. I said commit does not exist, so it said I was out of sync. I linked the repo and it said it might be a fork. Then it invented a mailing list thread where they supposedly removed the feature, that’s why I couldn’t find it.
Same experience with the interaction I described in my comment... after I finally got the correct answer, I asked where it got the faulty information from. It said it had just simply fabricated it. That's actively worse than just saying "I don't know", for something that's sold to us as an easy way to look up information.
Maybe it's because they are trained on Internet comments, and the most rare thing to find on the Internet is someone admitting they don't know something.
But if they had been trained on comments saying "I don't know", they'd probably act the same as they do now but they'd treat "I don't know" as the answer.
This is such a 2024 take. Model will push back and tell you the knowledge gap they have, but people are just used to ask gooogle leading questions, which port badly to llm as it makes them defend the position instead of research data
The saddest part is when people take their experience with Google's idiotic AI implementation and assume that's how all LLMs work. Frontier-class models will, in fact, generally admit when they don't know something. That includes the one I run at home on my own graphics cards, but it seems that Google just doesn't GAF.
Your point about "predicting the next word" mostly means that your post was very easy to predict.
I still believe this AI push out of nowhere is due to the current Government in power state side. Making everyone question themselves and each other and being uncertain about facts while being inundated with techbro fake news called hallucinations is a recipe for disaster for older populations that don't 'trust but verify' like most technology inclined people. This is all by design and we'll falling for it.
The more simple explanation is that the current government in power is over exposed in their AI investment. The normal conservative mainstream media was already doing a great job of propagandizing older populations.
It takes either being scared to death to admit what's going on in the world, or an attention span of a guppy, to keep calling people conspiracy theorists these days.
If you don't think the world is rife with criminal conspiracies you weren't paying attention in history class.
There's an enormous difference between outlandish claims about extraterrestrials or turning frog gays and believing there's a category of politicians trying to get wealthy off of their position. It's somewhat reasonable to hypothesize about criminal conspiracies in that 2nd scenario.
Yup. I'm most familiar with Jill Lepore and Quinn Slobodian (and others in their respective orbits). They're both historians who've written extensively about Musk and Muskism (et al). Wild stuff.
Apparently the plan is to use AI slop, mediated thru social medias, to defeat the woke mind virus, perpetuated by the Anti-Christ, in order to safe guard humanity's future.
I have one google account where gemini constantly confidently hallucinates crap, and another where it doesn't (at least to the extent that other modern LLMs don't).
I take this to mean that my one account has been mistaken for a competitor and they're trying to poison its data. But who knows.
Literally every experience I've had with Gemini / Google Search AI answers followed this exact pattern, often repeated several times more if I remained persistent instead of just giving up.
Typical example:
"Where can I buy <thing I'm looking for that I can't find anywhere using normal search terms>?"
> You're looking for <related but different and widely available thing>. It is sold by <sites I never heard of>.
"No, that's different. I'm looking for <that thing but with the exact differences spelled out again>."
> Ah, my mistake. You're looking for <thing I described>. It is sold by <sites I never heard of but which don't actually sell it>.
"I've checked your links and none of those sites actually sell it, one doesn't even sell products and instead only offers manufacturing - but also not for what I asked you for."
> I'm sorry, my bad. Those sites don't sell what you are looking for. Instead you should check out <more sites I've never heard of>.
"Those sites sell the thing you initially thought I was asking about but not the thing I described."
> I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. You can find the thing you actually described at <yet more sites including some of the same>.
"No. None of these sites sell anything close to what I asked you for and two of them don't actually exist."
> Oh, sorry about that. You're completely right. The thing you asked me about isn't actually being sold by anyone. However you could buy <thing it first thought I meant and that wouldn't bring me any closer to solving my problem>.
The few times I've resigned myself to asking Gemini or ChatGPT something I couldn't find an answer to, my experience has been the same. 100% of the time. An LLM has never, not once, given me a correct answer or not lied to me. It's always been the same experience you describe. It goes in circles "Try X... Try Y... Try X?" Until I tell it to stop telling me X or Y, and then it goes, "LOL you can't do that at all, I was just wasting your time."
Most recently, I was considering moving away from iterm2 on MacOS, and I wanted to know if any other terminal emulator supported gestures for switching between tabs. So I asked Gemini, and it says, "Yes Ghostty supports gestures for switching between tabs."
"Ok I just installed Ghostty and I can't find anything about gestures."
"You need to add foo=bar to your conf file."
"I added foo=bar to my conf file and now it's saying the conf file is invalid."
"Sorry bro, remove foo=bar and add baz=boo to the conf file."
"It says baz=boo is invalid too."
"baz=boo isn't a real option. Remove that and add foo=bar to your conf file."
"You already told me to do that and I already told you that doesn't work."
"You shouldn't put foo=bar or baz=boo in the Ghostty conf file. Both are invalid. Ghostty doesn't support gestures. Have you considered iterm2?"
Gemini is utterly useless, but every other modern model would be capable of answering this correctly. If you ran a local coding agent, I wouldn’t be surprised if you could one-shot implement gesture support in Ghostty. It’d definitely configure BTT for you.
Here’s GPT 6’s answer to the prompt “What macOS terminal apps support gestures? Include a reference to the docs on how to enable/configure them.”:
iTerm2 supports configurable three-finger taps and swipes for switching tabs/panes, creating splits, pasting, etc. Set them up under Settings > Pointer > Bindings. Check for conflicting macOS trackpad assignments. [1]
The others are more limited: Ghostty supports macOS lookup/Quick Look gestures [2], while WezTerm lets you bind scroll events—for example, Ctrl+scroll to change font size. [3] Neither is equivalent to iTerm2’s gesture bindings.
For custom gestures without switching terminals, BetterTouchTool can map app-specific trackpad gestures to the terminal’s existing keyboard shortcuts. [4]
This whole tree just made me realize that people have wildly different prompting styles, and Gemini is probably too specialized for usage patterns of long-time Google Search users. The prompt my finger generated(before this comment was posted) was "are there any terminal emulator that supports gesture actions, on macOS, other than iterm2", and Gemini gave me Tabby, WezTerm, Kitty, and BetterTouchTool gestures.
This is a different experience to GP from query to result. I thought they've all fixed that issue of difference in tones affecting results. I guess it was never easily fixed.
Pretty sure it's the harness here, not Gemini per se. Plug Gemini into pi or any harness that has any competence pointing to web search and the hallucinations drop 75% immediately.
LLMs can actually be a good fit in this application if a better search engine feeds them a list of candidate websites that might sell the thing, and the LLM drives a web browser to see if any of the websites have it.
Claude also has very arbitrary and confusing rules about what web pages it allows itself to look at, and how much of the page it can read. Did you know for example you’ll get a much deeper analysis if you download a PDF yourself and upload it to Claude instead of giving it the url?
This is a key reason why I actually like Grok for factual queries based on web grounding. It’s fast and reliable. Maybe it’s ignoring robots.txt? Dunno. But it works well.
It is using the search engine. The AI summary is run over the top 100 results for your query (or something)
The problem is they're just running a very dumb, cheap model on the results because running a smart model on every search result page would cost them infinity money.
This is the key part I think most “normies” miss, and it drives me absolutely mad. People take the “first thing on the SERP” as absolute gospel, always have. It went from being a reputable site (Wikipedia was generally top for a long time) to being an extracted verbatim answer (probably from either Wikipedia, IMDB, etc.) to “AI Overview” - the dumbest model ever trained. And people treat its answers as ground truth. I want to tell them “Look, I know it’s rough out there on the net and a lot of the search results are spammy, barely-coherent AI slop anyway. It’s okay if you want to ask AI for an answer instead. So do that! Please ask ChatGPT or Gemini (and ask it to cite the source for its results so you can verify). It will always do better than AI Overviews will. Don’t even use Google Search at this point unless you have to, and if you do, scroll past that slop.”
I think you overestimate how much people want an actual truthful answer. I think people are often looking things up to silence a nagging voice in the back of their heads, or settle an argument to be able to move on. In those cases, no decision is riding on the answer, and a quick answer, even when factually incorrect, could be argued to serve the purpose just as well as (or better than) a slow but more correct answer.
I realised this for myself when I read Sivers on being without internet[1]. He discovered a process to silence the nagging voice without searching:
The other day, it was the Aussie AFL final. We were in the car and asked it for a score update.
"The team are tied at the end of the third round with the scores 43 to 51".
So it was tied at the end of round 2 for 43, not round 3. Not sure were it got the 51 from and why it figured it was a tie. LLM's pretty cool until they aren't. As they say, the hallucinate 100% of the time but most of the time it is useful.
You're experiencing how LLMs predict left to right. It would never have said "at the end of the third round the scores are 43 to 51 and the teams are tied" but it painted itself into a corner by saying there was a tie first, presuming the numbers are real.
The days of search for untrusted sources were numbered even without LLMs. LLMs are simply accelerating the process. Why would Google simultaneously watch one of its core products fail and fail to invest in what is likely to replace it?
I don't really buy into this theory that they want to keep all of their users on their site due to advertising revenues. The effectiveness of search engines has been degraded for decades due to SEO, and it seems as though search engines have been having an increasingly difficult time managing it in recent years. AI on the backend may help them contain it, but it comes at considerable expense. While it may help them grow their market share, it won't help them grow the market and it is a market where people expect the service for free. On the flip side, companies are already starting to sell AI services, so it can generate revenue even before advertising is factored into the picture.
How did you google this, and did you use the dumb search, or specifically 'AI mode' lens?
Because I did this and got a vastly different result from you:
Yes, the Halifax Wanderers can still mathematically qualify for the 2026 Canadian Premier League (CPL) playoffs.The top four teams advance to the postseason. Following their 1-0 loss to Atlético Ottawa on September 26, 2026, the Wanderers sit in fifth place, just below the playoff line.
With a indexed table of the games and the playoff table, with a breakdown of what the points they need to achieve to do so.
The search window may not always crawl sources. AI mode specifically does some research before giving you a response. Not sure what you're on about.
> Because I did this and got a vastly different result from you
Which itself is a major UX issue. The average person is not going to understand, if they even realize, that there's a difference between the AI summary and AI mode.
One has to wonder just how much incorrect information people have consumed due to things like this.
I experienced this the other month. I searched for some safety data on something at the same time as my wife and we were effectively given extremely conflicting information about what to do by Google. Just a few tweaks in wording and different advertising profiles and Google will serve up opposite realities it seems.
Not OP, but if I’m not interested in using Google’s AI, it’s going to just return these weird bad results that it’d be better off if Google just didn’t even include them as they’re factually wrong?
I typed it in my address bar and hit ENTER. It goes to Google, and the AI result is at the top above the regular search results. Don't know what to tell you brother, but as another commenter noted you don't always get the same results out of the same search terms. I've searched for CPL standings other times and gotten results exactly as you've explained, so maybe my experience yesterday was an anomaly.
LLM results are nondeterministic, you can ask it 10 times and get 10 different answers. But also it uses your specific profile, location, tracking cookies, etc which changes the model input and thus results. Even the time of day changes the results.
Kagi works like you would expect. It searches first - and then if you’ve ended your search with a ? or configured it to always do this - it passes the search results into the assistant and gives you a summary. You can change the default model used for this if you think the cheapest, fastest model Google has is not good enough for the rare occasions you want any model’s opinions about your search results.
Google is horrible now and search doesnt show anything relevant anymore. I miss old Google, with 30 pages of links. Now if you search for a specific quote and it wont find it. Everything is walled now and content you get is the one they want to push.
Commercially, this may be what they want to happen. Instead of just getting an answer, they got you to make three more prompts / queries. What do you know? "Engagement" just went up 3X!
If you think a little pessimistically, it's easy to see how they want people to just trust the answers they get, without any sources. Then, once they trust it, they can modify it as it benefits them (framing answers to promote products/ads, changing history to whatever a particular government may want it to say, etc.)
I feel like this might be self-preservation of most of the frontier model companies in that at first they wanted to show off the models with all the cool actuators that it had at its disposal, but then when profits weren't keeping up, they nerfed them to need to be specifically asked to escalate levels of effort, which the Google search AI isn't explicitly told to do in its pre-fetch.
How about Alexa - given a "6 minute green beans timer" - later reporting 11m remaining on said timer? Confronted with the error, "You're right! That 6 minute green beans timer was too ambitious."??!!
We somehow, at some point, totally solved the problem of voice recognition, and then instead of just doing the initial shit we used to do when the problem was that speech parsing just wasn't good, we now chuck that perfect speech recognition into a completely fallible LLM, a shitty one at that, so it can ignore the perfectly captured and parsed speech!
I remember when Google was accused for forcing users to go through several pages for answers, because this translated into more clicks, and higher engagement. I am curious whether AI overview will be as bad, as people can tolerate for you to spend more time with it, more queries, which translates into more time spent with Google.
They can show numbers, how much people use their engine, and the numbers goes up.
What do you mean? I can guarantee that there would at least be 3-4 people who got their promo packets approved for this feature.
Google’s features exist for its employees to be promoted.
I think they're training their models using us correcting them repeatedly. That's my tin foil hat theory and I'm sticking to it!
After all, why would Google do anything for free when it comes to AI?
If you wanted to tease customers with one AI shitty free search box in order for them to then decide to upgrade and pay for Gemini, well, this isn't the way. And so either Google are idiots, or we're helping them for free. I'm going with Occam's Razor on this one - we're the product.
Until Google wants to pay for reasoning for everyone their AI results will continue to be terrible. In my experience, reasoning fixes a great many of the sorts of hallucinations and falsehoods I've received from googling.
This is the reason why most people underestimate AI. These free to use models can do a very poor job in easy things. Some people assume that’s the state of the art with AI.
On current website data and very recent information, Gemini is explicitly forbidden from acting as a search engine; If you ask it for references specifically they tend to be hallucinated, over and over again, until it pleads "Sorry, I can't access the Internet".
I'm being very mindful of Gell-Mann Amnesia and chatbots. They speak authoritatively and are right often enough, but I've had enough cases of them saying very incorrect things in areas I know well that I have to remind myself that those cases aren't unique.
while i share your frustration, Google for their part is trying to adapting a new technology into an existing service. while the whole endeavor might have been misguided, not sure we want to blame them for trying...
Perplexity has similar behavior to what GPP describes of Google; I've asked perplexity to compile information that exists on the web. Instead of consulting existing web pages, it gives limited summary responses from its weights (while citing some page that has nothing to do with what I asked.) When I attempt to redirect it towards more concrete sources, it won't comply.
I find that it is exceptionally bad with sports. I don't really want to google anything about the Texas A&M Aggies at the moment, but when I did, it would regularly hallucinate scores, hallucinate opponents, get the locations of games wrong, confuse A&M's quarterback with someone else, etc. Maybe its better in other domains; I don't know, I mostly don't even use Google these days, pretty much entirely because I want to avoid the AI Overview, which is just wrong way too often to be the first result.
"Gemini, is today the 3rd Thursday of the month, I need to know if I can park here or if the street sweepers coming" No you can park there. "Is Today Thursday?" Yes "Is Today Wednesday?" Yes
free tier AI is still horrible, the responsible thing would be for search engines to stop serving it at all, but somehow they must think they will make more money misleading people so they mislead people.
You are posing a question that requires deductive reasoning. LLMs can only approximate that if they have sufficient corpus to find their way to a believable response. Their willingness to spout bullshit in such scenarios where their sources are sparse is a problem but you can't expect them to function like a fully developed mind.
The first time, sure, it saves compute. The second time you ask, I feel like it should be the time to go into thinking/verification mode. But who are you? Are you paying? Does the answer being correct generate ad dollars? No? Then your usage mode isn't even being optimized for in their A/B test, probably.
In fact, if hallucinating the wrong answer hooks you into doing even more searches or into buying something useless, it would be preferred!
The gogol agenda of blocking and excluding all web engines not part of their whatwg cartel is moving forward, at a slow pace, steathly.
gogol search was blocked to all noscript/basic HTML browsers last year. I recall people that a few years before, they removed their gmail basic HTML interface not long after that their account creation (then login) would require one the abominations of the whatwg cartel.
I have been working around the gogol search engine since then and my email is now self hosted without DNS (IPv6 literals, see RFC). Yeah, most DNS registrars are now gated by the whatwg cartel web engines in some way, this is the net effect of big corpos toxic behavior.
The problem is one of information provenance. A search engine shows you stuff that other people have written. It might be right or it might be wrong. But you get to judge that yourself, because you have an idea of where the information came from.
With AI summaries they take that away from you and claim the provenance for themselves. Google is now giving you the answer and they hide where that answer came from. Therefore, you cannot properly evaluate the provenance of the information presented. It still might be right or wrong, but you can no longer properly evaluate it based on source.
It feels a bit like how Amazon and META purposefully do not create search that can actually help you filter for exactly what you want.
There are incentives to create products that work just barely, just enough for you to use them and don't leave for elsewhere but then they want to maximize everything else like the probability you view side products or ads or just click around and type and generate more data.
Unless someone else offers something better they will offer something that is basically as bad as they can get away with so long as there are benefits to them for doing so..
Well, isn't this an example of why Google are going in the direction the OP is complaining about? Why are you searching with a question? Are you hoping to find a forum post with this exact question or something?
I don't understand the game you are interested in, but you should be searching something like "Xball qualifying results" or "Xball playoff rules" or something. Instead, by asking a question you are expecting Google to be AI.
They know what people are typing in so it seems they are quite justified into pivoting from a search engine to an AI.
I agree. When I read the post I immediately thought what is Gemini chat doing there when it should be a search engine. It could probably give sensible answers if it defaulted to search first. It looks more like they are trying to showcase Gemini, not augment google search. They might even be thinking "search" is a dying product.
When I’m using a public urinal in 2026, it’s flushing three times, except after you’ve finished. Instead the light switches off during the act, which you’re carrying out blindfolded then. These things were more or less perfected technologies a few decades ago.
The reason I cannot spare HN has to do with the Marxist concept of added value. Enshittification becomes necessary once growth isn’t possible anymore on a corporations home turf, where it was actually innovative.
And it's going to get worse over time (kinda like how Google search results got worse over time) as ads get introduced and people try to game the ai response. General purpose AI chatbots are a waste.
They’re trying to keep it from “thinking too hard”/using “too many” resources.
That simple.
Broad rules across specific subjects like this are tough to get right.
Just lots of fine-tuning and exceptions.
I had their chatbot avoid pulling a URL from archive.org with a couple pretty impressive steps of mental gymnastics basically telling me how I could do it myself, but refusing until I pushed.
> My question is: what's the point of the AI in the search engine if it itself isn't going to use the search engine first before answering?
Because the point of AI slop is to waste your time. You just lost about 30 seconds of your life trying to get a correct answer. AI was lying to you, so you had to spend time to counter the AI slop lies here.
I solved it by banning all AI slopness; in the browser some extensions do that. The world becomes better without AI slopness.
This isnt wierd. Its disturbing. I believe that the tech industry is geniunely trying to scare and disorient the public into thinking they are the only thing standing between them and some evil AI overlord which is obviously just the tech industry itself and a pile of poor trained LLMs.
I believe this "fear" factor they are driving they believe will increase their credibility when they call LLMs AI and is a con towards convincing everyone they have reached AGI. Its definitely marketing preparation so that when they do claim AGI we will believe it without question. (or else!)
If these folks didnt have so much money it would be something to laught at, but its now becoming geniunely disturbing and Im starting to think that the folks running these shops are probably flirting with or experiencing extended mental illness.
I would feel sorry for them if I cared. I dont care. The tech industry is a joke and we are all going to be ashamed to be a part of it by the time this is over. Shut it down.
Is it so hard to imagine they just believe what they are saying?
15 years ago, if you asked 100 people in tech to define "artificial general intelligence", 90 of them would have come up with a standard that LLMs today easily clear.
Now that we're here I think we can have a much clearer vision, and we can notice limitations that we couldn't have articulated before.
But I'm starting to notice more "polarization" around this topic and it's weird. We're in a new era and I think no one knows the future, a lot of different beliefs are reasonable.
> 90 of them would have come up with a standard that LLMs today easily clear.
> Now that we're here I think we can have a much clearer vision, and we can notice limitations that we couldn't have articulated before.
Okay, but had you been able to time travel and show them today's LLMs back then, how many of them would have agreed that we had "AGI", and how many would have instantly recognized the limitations they'd failed to articulate?
Because the way that some people talk about current models supposedly "passing the Turing test" makes me think they would have given ELIZA a pass too. It's just so obvious that none of them are convincingly human out of the box.
Current models have passed a formally administered Turing test.
If you’ve never participated in a formal Turing test, either as human user or as a responder to the human, you might find it interesting, and possibly humbling.
Do you have problems with your iris-contraction muscles and other involuntary muscle reactions? Because that's what Voight-Kampff actually tested. Supposedly, autistics and sociopaths would still pass it (as long as they were otherwise 'normal' humans).
Eliza would not remotely pass the turing test as turing envisioned in his paper. And frontier labs are not optimizing for 'convincingly human'. If Open AI or Anthropic wanted, frontier models could pass much more human like.
> Okay, but had you been able to time travel and show them today's LLMs back then, how many of them would have agreed that we had "AGI", and how many would have instantly recognized the limitations they'd failed to articulate?
Feynman would laugh and say, "i told you so. i'll be at Gianonni's"
Yes, Sam Altman is a known liar and cheat. With hundreds of billions of dollars on the line, the simplest answer is these are publicity stunts to grow revenue before an IPO.
I mean, really, if they were so dangerous, like "everyone" working in these companies believes, you think they would do more than amateur hour to build sandboxes?
The danger stunt is also a major distraction from talking about the real quality issues of LLMaS (LLMs as a Service). How many tokens are consumed? What quality? Was I downgraded?
By forcing the discussion about doomerism, they avoid real discussions about their service. Which is exactly what they want. You can bet when they go to "regulate" LLMs, they won't be asking the department of weights and measures to validate they are counting tokens fairly. No.
This is kind of like saying the warnings about cancer on cigarettes, or oil spills, are regulatory capture because the tobacco and oil companies think it makes them look cool.
They really do think AI is very dangerous and can end the world!
Then they should shut their doors and delete it all. This is like building a new gun as you tell everyone about how dangerous guns are and how they will destroy all of us. It cannot be so imminently dangerous/uncontrollable while also being the product your business happily makes and unleashes online to take down websites/violate federal law. You can't pretend you care while also happily sicking it on the public.
But there are a dozen other people also building the same kind of guns, so unilaterally abandoning your version won't actually avert disaster. All it does is take you out of the running for the the $10 trillion prize that's available if you figure out how to build it without killing everyone.
I get that logic even if I don’t buy it. But it doesn’t mean they need to keep unleashing it and breaking things. They’re literally doing the things they’re warning us will happen. They’re deliberately attacking infrastructure/websites.
> This is like building a new gun as you tell everyone about how dangerous guns are and how they will destroy all of us.
That's correct, that is what they think they're doing. It's based on a new religion invented by Big Yud which says we have to invent good computer gods or else there won't be anyone around smart enough to fight evil computer gods.
It is possible (likely) this was a bad idea, but you can't undiscover math once it's discovered. And it did work out last time:
> I mean, really, if they were so dangerous, like "everyone" working in these companies believes, you think they would do more than amateur hour to build sandboxes?
Unfortunately, lol no. Incompetence and recklessness have no bottom. (Which is not to say Altman is trustworthy).
> Beliefs, almost by definition, don’t have much to do reasoning
There is nothing in the definition of a belief that precludes arriving at it via reasoning. In fact, one of the definitions in the wiktionary is:
2. Faith or trust in the reality of something; often based upon one's own reasoning, trust in a claim, desire of actuality, and/or evidence considered.
Merriam Webster:
3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
That's (a reasonable interpolation of) one definition of 'belief.' The more common definition of belief is 'something someone believes.' For example I believe it's raining outside. That's testable.
Sorry but that’s a very naive mindset. These are companies run by verified liars with billions of invested dollars. They don’t believe in anything except extracting labor and capital to make billions more, and they will say whatever they need to say to achieve those goals. Any “belief” they may have had went out the window the moment they accepted VC money.
I think the simplest explanation is that they genuinely believe in AI safety risk (see: huggingface, govt websites hacked, etc) vs. it all being an industry conspiracy
If OpenAI dropped Astra in Codex instead of GPT-3 in 2022 most people would've believed it was AGI despite its limitations, but the goalposts seem to shift with every release
when are they going to do something actually impactful though (like drive a real innovation in the physical world)? The most invested in areas are coding and image/asset generation and those both still require careful supervision and guidance to achieve anything usable.
The tools are crazy impressive but is this really the future we dreamed of? Cool now I sit on the computer and monitor n+ agents instead of doing it myself. Great it hacked Huggingface "accidentally" wow AGI post-work world is coming soon.
I don’t understand how we’re 60 comments in and yet no-one has suggested that the problem is that you’re continuing to use Google despite it changing its core offering out from underneath your feet. If you want search (which isn’t an unreasonable desire) then Google isn’t the place for you any more.
Yup. I've been using Kagi for a couple years now and haven't looked back. If I'm on someone else's computer where I don't have my Kagi login, DuckDuckGo is usually sufficient.
Paying for search isn't for everyone, of course, but I like being the customer and not the product, and I think the quality of the experience flows from that.
These comments come up every time someone mentions Kagi on HN, yet the commentator apparently never boycotts Google because it pays for the American or Israeli war effort. Why is Ukraine the only war that matters?
Because some people care a lot more about Ukraine than about a side with pretty unsavory combatants and a radicalized population that supports said unsavory combatants?
Oh this is an easy one, because I care about Ukraine more than I care about a million other conflicts that may be happening in the world at the moment.
I think you’ll find that this is the case for everyone - people care about their 2 or 3 pet things and pay little attention to the distractions.
Understandable but not everyone in Russia is for that war, even if they have to pay taxes.
It's terribly unfortunate ... but such that it is, I know if I absolutely need results when other alternative search engines are doing little better than Google ... ie not at all, then last try it's Yandex, which has seen more issues creep in the last few years using switch operators, than I recall back in 2015; but any amount of helpful results is better than zero, as well as not wasting hours of my time. But at times sometimes Yandex also strikes out oddly, almost like there's an unseen cabal that have decreed some more or less benign content off limits.
You don't have to be for war to be instrumental in it. But Yandex isn't even just a Russian taxpayer which would be bad enough. It's been apprehended by the government and turned into a key element of its propaganda machine. It's literally one of the things that keeps Russia what it is. And using results from it? That's just insane. They are poisoned, and we actually know about it in detail thanks to a source code leak. If I wanted to see what the Russian propaganda is pushing today I can go to Yandex directly. But including it in my search results automatically?
I don't really rely on search engines including Yandex to feed me stories which could be political propaganda - I can readily rely on various news sites to do that. I also just want the results which are links to other sites which may or may not be politically biased.
I'm usually looking for information - generally as an aide to help recall old movies and songs etc, for device info, filling in broad blanks on new consumer everyday stuff I've not encountered that much or looking for precise troubleshooting diagnostic help often found in forums. Lately the main stay search engines are loathed to provide decent diagnostic queries with quality results from forum based help areas - most of the time I know stack exchange results should be higher in number or exist, as well there being a shortage of variety of other forums in the results. It's generally why for the harder queries I end back at Yandex.
While I agree with everything you write, Google results are equally poisoned. Yandex provides results which the US government censors. The only way we can currently get a full picture of the internet is using search engines oppositionally. Kagi does this using an amalgamation, and unfortunately that means using Yandex and other sources.
I would love to live in a world where governments were not censoring content.
Could you share with us some examples of search results provided by Yandex which the US government censors? What specific domains or sites does Yandex index and provide results on?
It was also very good during the pandemic. Google results at the time were extremely biased towards Western government narratives. Some mainstream articles which took a skeptical view on lockdowns and the virus orgin seemingly would not show regardless of how you tried to search them on Google.
Yandax on the other hand tended to be more neutral.
DBA most likely means “don’t believe anything” or “don’t believe anybody”
Just checking Yandex - it did give a better result for "flat earth" as a search with lots of great YouTube videos near the top. Wikipedia came in at the 10th result in the list so that was good too.
I'm sure Yandex welcomes malcontented revolutionary thinkers. To quote Yandex:
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me
And yet, I somehow seem to be aware that 1337x.to exists without ever having used Yandex to find it...
I have no doubt that Russia is a free for all of finding pirated stuff online, since what US copyright holder is going to bother to even attempt to sue people in russia for something like hosting a website with direct download epub files of popular books?
Of course. [Google provides a dashboard for exactly this.](https://transparencyreport.google.com/government-removals/go...) 275,597 named items for removal since 2011. You can download the report yourself. Content ordered for removal cover topics such as health all the way to copyright.
One major battle ground has been sci-hub. This is best described as a collective whose stated goal is to make science free for everyone rather than having it stuck behind a journal paywall. The entire journal industry is one giant scam, but I digress. U.S. laws have repeatedly been passed and tested, and Google has been repeatedly ordered to remove domains such as sci-hub.tw and sci-hub.cc, among many more.
This is far more expansive than scientific papers, of course, and extends to countless copyright adjacent websites. Sites which have been repeatedly targeted include YTS, FMovies, and AniWave (and their associated domains).
I should also expand my previous comment. Google doesn't just censor results which the U.S. government has requested. It very frequently censors results of its own volition. Whether for ideological or fiscal reasons. One litmus test I often use is to search for the Proud Boys. Their website(s) have long been censored for a variety of reasons, including "disinformation" and public safety. I can find their website on Kagi. I cannot find it on Google.
Whether by the government, or for ideological or fiscal reasons, when I search for information I expect to be given that information. Google is an unreliable source. They all are.
> One litmus test I often use is to search for the Proud Boys. Their website(s) have long been censored for a variety of reasons, including "disinformation" and public safety. I can find their website on Kagi. I cannot find it on Google.
Do you apply this same litmus test to far-left things which Google might have also removed, or do you consider the lack of Google listing the Proud Boys to be some sort of special and unique infringement on freedom of speech? I'm always quite suspicious when somebody cites something that is barely more rational than the ideology of Timothy McVeigh as something that deserves to be read by a wider audience. Do you also complain that your local Barnes and Noble doesn't stock a copy of the Turner Diaries?
> Do you apply this same litmus test to far-left things which Google might have also removed, or do you consider the lack of Google listing the Proud Boys to be some sort of special and unique infringement on freedom of speech?
I consider all censorship wrong. The reason I use the Proud Boys is because it was a well publicised incident and has been a reliable indicator of censorship since then. If you have left wing domains I could include in my litmus test I would be grateful. I'm sure that Yandex censors some of them, which is why I say above: the best way to circumvent censorship is oppositional use.
> I'm always quite suspicious when somebody cites something that is barely more rational than the ideology of Timothy McVeigh as something that deserves to be read by a wider audience. Do you also complain that your local Barnes and Noble doesn't stock a copy of the Turner Diaries?
What a remarkably fast progression from, "what is being censored?" to "here's why it's a good thing." I didn't claim Google has a responsibility to provide uncensored results. I and others are explaining that Google doesn't provide reliably uncensored results, and that that is why providers like Yandex are required to access an uncensored internet.
> Yandex are required to access an uncensored internet.
And if you can read Russian I'm sure you'd find that Yandex is suspiciously missing information about strongly anti-Putin Russians such as the recent writings of Garry Kasparov. Don't pretend it is some bastion of free speech. I still think it's extremely suspicious and very revealing that you immediately jumped to The Proud Boys as your first and best prototypical example of something that's being censored by Google.
> And if you can read Russian I'm sure you'd find that Yandex is suspiciously missing information about strongly anti-Putin Russians such as the recent writings of Garry Kasparov. Don't pretend it is some bastion of free speech.
And if you would do me the courtesy of reading my comments you would see that I am not claiming Yandex to be censorship-free. The exact opposite.
> I still think it's extremely suspicious and very revealing that you immediately jumped to The Proud Boys as your first and best prototypical example of something that's being censored by Google.
You must be easily alarmed. I find it revealing that you haven't provided any censored left wing content which I can add to my test. Instead of engaging with what I am writing, you repeat empty aphorisms and written tics which should best be contained to echo-chambers like Reddit and Bluesky.
Either way it seems you've given up any pretense of caring about the subject of censorship as it applies to search engines.
I detest the Proud Boys for a wide variety of reasons and I really wish that they would just go away.
But if they exist on the web, then I want to have the unfettered liberty to find them on that web and see what they've got to say without having it digested, ruminated and filtered before eventually being regurgitated through someone else's mouthpiece.
You're right, but a fair accounting would probably find that Google is even worse. US misinformation and deception is paralleled only by the Mossad/IDF, who also has Google contracts.
It's entirely worth boycotting all of these companies, if only to protect yourself from their manipulation.
Understandable. Personally, I'm also against that war.
Do you perhaps are also against the Israeli-Palestinian war?
Can you also CATEGORICALLY REFUSE to use any service, government or agency that aids either the acts of genocide from Israel or fuel the terrorist attacks from Hamas?
Wow, pretty cool, much better than being a Clinton fan during the destruction of Yugoslavia.
Thank you for sharing this information, you have now motivated me to purchase Kagi!
Bing has been better than google since 2019. Try googling in a fresh browser and see how much personalization contributes to the reranking and query rewriting.
Hey there, Caine from DuckDuckGo here. I understand why you might think this, but it's a myth.
We are significantly more than that at this point, including that we've been working on our own web index for the past two years (https://insideduckduckgo.substack.com/p/duck-tales-why-duckd...). But on top of that we don't get local results, knowledge graph, answers, sports, anything AI related, and many more essential modules from Bing, all of which collectively makes up a large % of the results at this point, let alone the vastly different UXs.
Since you're here, can you comment on the problem of SEO spam and what DDG is doing about it? Just today I was looking for instructions on how to replace the cushions on my headphones. I typed into DDG the query "instructions to replace bose headphone pads" and it came up with pages and pages of links to SEO slop. The link to the actual Bose website containing accurate instructions was near the bottom of the second page of results.
At work I can't customise much, like the browser I use, but I did ditch Google/Chrome for Bing/Edge years ago. Not what I would usually recommend, but when work only allows those two options...
On Bing!!!! Sorry, in the back of my mind, bing is that very sad MS search that was terrible at everything :) And it gave you something useful - astonishing.
Bing was never great, but Google has gotten so much worse in the past year or so (ironically, the biggest fall was shortly after they started requiring JS around a year ago) that it's now the better choice. Yahoo is another one I've started using instead.
Also - capitalism doesn't like "works just fine". We call that stagnation. For better or worse they're going to continue to try to "innovate" new ways of squeezing some KPIs out of their products
There are time of options. Some people find their happy place with DDG. Others with Braves Search, Kagi, Firefox. There's dozens to choose from. Opera and Vivaldi probably have search engines now if you are down to change your browser too. It depends on what your priorities are, but there's a search engine out there for you that is better than Google search
Kagi is brilliant. I find the whole Yandex -thing silly (EU spending on liquefied gas etc. from Russia is more than Yandex’s whole annual revenue) and only wish same scrutiny would be put on corporations funding Israel genocides.
I use DDG at work on Firefox with all AI blocked. If I would apart from Kagi, I would use SearXNG locally accessing it elsewhere with Tailscale. I think Hister seems promising, but have not tried it myself yet.
Trading using Google for giving money directly to a company that directly funds Russia’s efforts in the Ukraine invasion, that acknowledges and refuses to do anything about it, doesn’t seem like the greatest swap.
A small search engine with a tiny user base is paying another search engine enough that it is paying enough tax on received money to fund a war? How does that make any sense? I also hate the war, I'm not on any side, but this just doesn't make any sense.
You might say directly in a sentence as many times as you want, it doesn't make it the truth. Kagi is not directly supporting Russian military efforts. It is a gross oversimplification.
Yandex pays taxes into the Russian government which is controlling military actions in Ukraine. Is this or is this not true?
Yandex pays taxes based off revenue it takes in from companies like Kagi. Is this or is this not true?
People here who pay into Kagi provide the search engine with the funding to pay Yandex. Is this or is this not true?
You can say it’s “not direct” and it’s an “oversimplification,” but the money still ends up in the same place all the same. You can try to wash your hands of it all you want by playing mental gymnastics.
Willingly paying Kagi knowing this makes you at minimum partially complicit in Russia’s invasion and ethnic cleansing of Ukraine.
I guess then you would also believe that someone who voted for the current president of the US also isn’t directly responsible for the war in Iran, ICE killing US citizens, and the alienation of Canada.
It’s easy to say “I’m not directly responsible” if you’re proxying it through someone else.
I don't mean their own LLM generated response to the query. I mean websites in the SERP. A lot are auto generated LLM slop. DDG isn't doing anything to filter out this low quality junk from their index.
Not using the A.I. version, though I do have an A.I. assit box up top at times. I've noted more rubbish search results lately -- I feel at at times DDG just doesn't bother to try or has deceased the giving a flaquk setting. My goto has been DDG primarily for about 10 years. I've struck this unhelpful Meh response on and off the last couple months primarily with slightly off the beaten track queries ...often having to go to something I had to do with Google, using quotes around an often common term I really needed the result to include to finally trying to narrow it down quickly defaulting to no results at all - then having to switch back to Google, where Google would surprise me with at least a handful of suitable results.
can confirm as of this morning. last i checked Brave's Leo was slop but i'm sure the models have changed
of course Google / Gemini search is slop as well but it is at least advanced slop. not like whatever Soylent 1.5 Flash that DDG is bringing to the table
Like it or not, this is exactly what normies have always wanted out of search engines - a little guy in their computer they can talk to for answers, advice and reassurance. They've always been trying to use Google Search this way and have been confused and annoyed that it doesn't work. And now it does! It's a massive quality of life improvement for the average user and a huge product win for Google.
I'm not an engineer, but this is how I was taught to use digital search back in my elementary school's library in the second or third grade (it replaced the card catalogue) and it's how I've searched ever since. We had an entire class period on how to keep our search keywords to the minimum so we'd get good results.
The problem was our parents never got this course, and sadly, neither did the generations after us. "Computer" Class for me (born early 90s) was keyboarding -> how to find information online -> how to evaluate and rate itegrity of internet sources -> Microsoft Office.
The kids who stopped getting that are probabaly old enough for a bachelors degree now. Today, the schools mostly just hand them an iPad and a Google Workspace sign-in and pretend everything is fine.
They did. Our local libraries in the 90s had internet courses you could take that would teach you how to browse and search. But this stopped for everyone around 2000 when suddenly knowing how to use any piece of software was considered assumed knowledge for some reason.
They could; those were opt-in classes, neither of my parents took them. In my case, it was because my mom didn't care, and my dad didn't think he needed them (worked at IBM in field tech). I imagine most folks were in the same boat.
I wouldn't have taken keyboarding if I hadn't been forced to at the age of 8. I hated keyboarding classes. I am so glad I took them now. I hated doing boring research projects and looking crap up on Yahoo's Directory. I love that I have a basic understanding of how to rate and investigate a website's trustworthiness. Mfers don't even look at the "About" section anymore.
This is also why the wacko and bizarro concept that "removing options and configs from programs" aka Gnome's big purge more than a decade ago, is nonsense today.
All those studies about GUI usability were done in the early 2000s. Before phones. When most people were just learning how to use a computer. The idea of options certainly was confusing, because "clicking on things" was even confusing.
Yet today, we have a populous which, more and more, grew up with computers. And loves to personalize. And wants options. So just keep that in mind, all you frontenders, config options aren't necessarily bad. Ancient studies have little relevance 24 years later.
Sorry to hijack a bit, but felt it was relevant to courses, teaching, and the state of time in 2000 vs now.
I think Gnome removing options was more about having a smaller and more manageable set of features that need to be QA tested. I'd much rather have well-designed and well-supported defaults than 500 buggy customizable components that don't work well together.
I'm not sure about you, but I find Gnome very easy to use, although I miss some features. Those features can be added with Gnome extensions that are maintained by third-parties. Meanwhile I find GIMP extremely hard to use, as it packs in too many features to allow their designers to figure out a good UX which doesn't break some component.
Yes, but is making everyone learn information retrieval techniques, re-skilling as needed for new generations of systems, really a societal optimum? Prior to the Internet, this was a dedicated job done by librarians and paralegals. LLM-augmented search has gotten us over the temporary hump of it being everyone’s job.
I typed this into Google because I expected you would be correct, and the LLM would return examples of the meme, and I wanted to see it.
Instead, the AI answered that it is "actually a famous example from internet culture used to describe how people use search engines. The phrase stems from discussions on tech forums like Hacker News regarding the differences between "keyword searching" and "natural language searching"".
It really is a great piece. I think a lot of his stuff has suffered in quality as he’s trying to strike while the iron is hot, but this piece in particular really is excellent.
But that's so dumb. Google search didn't die in 2019.
The PageRank algorithm, and importantly, any algorithm which depends on page content and pages linking to each other and referencing each other was DoA, because it only worked in an adversary free context! The very second there was a real incentive to be at the top of Google's search results, their algorithms were going to be attacked and manipulated.
That makes "search" a neverending arms race. The very thing that launched Google as some amazing thing was doomed from the start. They've been laying hacks on top of hacks on top of hacks ever since. It's been shit basically since SEO has existed, which is what the "adversary" is.
Another good point for when google "died" was when they bought doubleclick. They were an ad company from that point on. There was never a good outcome possible after that. If ads were something that benefited you the user, you would have to pay for them.
Ed’s piece on this is considered pretty authoritative. There was a very specific moment where they determined, concretely, ad placement > utility of search results. Combined with years of damage from encouraging SEO tactics…well, here we are. Sure maybe this was always going to be the outcome, but we do know the major decisions that directly lead to this result as it played out.
If you haven’t read it from start to finish you should. If you have, what about it is insufficient?
Yeah, the history of Google search quality is cycles of good results vs. cycles of SEO spam. ~2019 tracks as the point when Google surrendered in the war on SEO.
You could just have a specialized model that rewrites prose questions to actual search keywords (i.e. what power users do in their heads), and even a 2nd one that does a fitting pass based on intention after querying.
Except sometimes I explicitly do not want to reveal what my search intent is / explain why I want to search for this. The Google 2006 method gave me some room to do this, but now it feels like I can't do that on my own and I need to talk to Gemini. Horrible experience.
Christ, thank you! I’ve been saying this for years and no one I’ve spoken to, even engineers, could acknowledge the level of “chunking” that’s been engrained in them over the years for turning inquiries into keyword/phrase shorthand, and that this is NOT something most people want to do, and is the killer app of Google AI. This time around, you CAN type in an input box what you would say to a human in everyday conversation, AND expect a reasonable response. That’s invaluable to a casual user.
I've always felt that "proper" and responsible LLM use for search [0] would be two boxes: You can describe what you want in the first, and it'll propose search terms in the second, and then those get executed normally.
Yes, the "average user" [1] might not usually care about the second box... Until they need to because the query/results are wrong.
Showing them in tandem means:
1. Users are at least capable of learning through exposure.
2. Users may realize a key term can be added which the model could never have guessed.
3. Users may recognize a term in there that doesn't make sense, allowing them to detect a translation error.
4. If good search-terms leads to a bad outcome, it is possible for someone to report and diagnose it, rather than a fully black-box mystery.
_____
[0] Not just for websites, but also things like internal business software, or SQL queries.
In the words of Edsger Dijkstra, "Projects promoting programming in 'natural language' are intrinsically doomed to fail." I think for something as bespoke as a search engine, a DSL that accepts quotes, logical operators, and specific terms definitely allows for far greater specificity than natural language can (at least in an equivalent amount of text).
I think the two-tiered input-output approach you propose makes sense. Allowing users to inspect and mutate lower-level languages allows the user to make modifications as needed. I think it's very much in the spirit of free software.
But then again, for text-based search specifically (search engines, notes, etc.), I think there is some value in querying the LLM directly, as it is able to fuzzy search by inspecting its weights. This results in a lesser degree of specificity, which allows for more false positives, but can maybe capture similar words (i.e., synonyms / typos / tenses) or higher-level semantic concepts.
Maybe they're just two different search algorithms, and the user should be able to choose between them.
Thanks for linking the article, I found it very interesting.
Your described thinking pattern does not apply to 95%+ users, and might add confusion leading to retention loss (e.g. 2 text boxes? Wtf, two boxes? What do i type in the second one? Whatever i’ll switch to the usual). Every project with at least 100K non-tech users I’ve worked on, has shown that sort of thinking just doesn’t translate.
And regarding “average doesn’t exist” - that’s true. But no company does a/b testing to land on average. I’d assume a good 85%-kinda pass rate for these type of experiments.
I think A/B testing may have value in selecting a specific path preferred by 85% of users, but it seems like alienating the remaining 15% doesn't feel great.
95% of users might not want the double-textbox, but 5% might, and some might want to use it someday.
I think, make enough of these decisions, and there's bound to be mounting friction for users with different preferences navigating your app.
Ideally, the app should offer a way for the user to intuitively configure the app to their own liking.
When an experiment passes, you don’t really lose that 15%. Most of the time they just get used to the other behaviour. Case in point - we’ve been whining about Google’s deterioration of search queries for ages, yet we’re still using it.
Ideally, yeah maybe, but why bother with extra implementation, support, costs and etc., when people fold and use the new way anyways?
It's not just engineers, I think it's more an age thing.
For a certain cohort (eg those currently between 35 and 45) who did any sort of grade school computer/library classes in the 90's/early2000's, 'chunking' or keyword searching was one of the main skills taught.
Many people who learned to search the Internet in early 2000s learned "boolean search queries" (terms connected with AND or OR). They're talking about the difference between boolean search queries and natural language search queries.
I'm not sure about this. I know complete normies that lament how bad Google is now and how often the search is useless. I think many people just want search to search.
Back in 1998, I specifically started using Google because it somehow managed to avoid spammy search results, unlike its competitors. Today, unfortunately, I find that a lot of Google's search results are spammy, useless information that is there for clicks and advertising only.
They have obviously been in an arms race with spammers and scammers since then. In 1998 it was relatively easy to stay ahead, but to keep winning for 30 years?
Googles quality issue seem to be, in part, a market driven choice. Services like Kagi use a large part of the Google data base but with all their additional capital extraction sorting on top.
Google can do it, but they must appease the share holders.
I'd argue that Kagi serves a niche of power users who knows what they want from their search engine and RTFM to get they want the way they want.
Google works like an automatic black-box which tries to deduce your intention from 4-5 words you typed in hastily.
I believe any ordinary user is still pretty happy about Google search in its current iteration. My mom doesn't get a YouTube premium account because she says she likes the ads, for example.
So, from our bubble, Google might be regressing, but the picture might be very different for the majority of Google users.
I use duckduckgo, mostly by habit at this point, and if i fail to find anything i go to claude and ask it.
Im getting closer and closer to just defaulting to the AI model search every day. Especially when I want to find something that I can list off 5+ semi accurate details about but cant remember the name of.
So if enough 737's crash into the water Boeing will start making submarines? Product managers deserve a special express queue when in line for the Warm Place.
>In 1968, Spencer Silver, a scientist at 3M in the United States, attempted to develop a super-strong adhesive. [...]
>Post-its were launched across the United States in 1980.[20][21] The following year, they were launched in Canada and Europe.[22] Post-it Notes as we know them were patented by Fry in 1993 as a "repositionable pressure-sensitive adhesive sheet material".[23]
The first thorough research went into them when looking for new clear plastics, and this route of making them was ruled out because it would rather stick to everything than ease the production of objects with nice optical properties. The story goes, it was so annoying to work with that it was initially shelved, and only years after being considered again and ruled out again for a different project, the utility of its reliable and fast bonding was fully appreciated.
No, we did not want it to offer weirdly irrelevant fake sympathy. We just wanted to talk in plain English and get relevant answers back in plain English, without us having to reel it it from going down some emotionally schizophrenic rabbit hole (like in TFA).
In TFA the chatbot got confused, and the author never decided to correct it with "no I'm trying to find an old tweet about NBA Dario" which a normie would do, and be satisfied with the result.
I mean if you're trying to mimic human-like interactions, then you have to remember that human interactions involve constant trivial miscommunications and correction of them.
I was always taken aback when I’d see people type fully formed sentences into an old Google search, when a couple keywords would have done just fine.
It reminds me of the motion controls we now have in video game controllers. In the 80s I remember my parents moving the controller as if that was going to help their Teris block or Mario go a little further than the D-pad alone. We laughed when people did this. Now, the controllers respond to what people had been doing for decades with no effect.
I suppose this is what technology should do, adapt to how people naturally use the thing, rather than trying to rigidly adhere to conventions users are expected to learn… that were only conventions due to the limits of technology when it was first developed.
I was at uni in 2005. A mate wanted to search for a book and wrote something like this in Google search "go to digital library and find me this book". We laughed at what he did back then, searched for "<book name>" in quotes and may be with filetype I dont remember and found the book.
I think about that lots of times when I google these days. That he wasn't wrong, was just asking it 15 years too early.
an interface goes from the programmer's concept to written code, transformed into a frontend for the programmer and the rest of humanity to prompt (verb); eventually the accumulated prompts from a programmer get brute-forced into design fundamentals like evolution in nature, or the frontend is designed to go around this (apple style UX).
TIL I was a normie. I don't get why anyone wouldn't want this if it worked. I don't get enjoyment from the act of searching and clicking through links and verifying. I want to know a thing and if the magic box can tell it to me that would be lovely
First of all, it usually doesn’t work, so “if it worked” remains kinda moot at present. Then I also prefer only typing a few keywords, rather than having to spell out in length what my goal is.
I get why you would want that, but I don't get why you don't get that it might not be the case for others. I love searching and clicking and reading around. Sometimes I read fascinating things about topics I wasn't searching for. I can't imagine a world where all my web searching is done through an annoying chatbot.
And this amorphous group of people you call 'normies' doesn't include you right? It's only those other people that are like that. Normal people like us want thing to be logical and for a search engine to search, while those other people want all their problems magically solved by a single search on google. Stupid normies (not me though).
What do you mean? Google disabled the more complicated operators that let the user (your "normy") refine their search. They did it on purpose. And the other day I noticed the date limiter in the results (last X months/year) got buried.
Surely you're not going to defend Google for these - they've been transitioning from an engine that's a tool to an engine that uses your attention as their tool for years now.
I don't think the vast majority of people wanted to have a conversation with a search engine: The point of Google is to access the world's information.
That being said, I like Google's new summaries; coaching relationships is crossing the line from search engine to something that's not a search engine.
I absolutely despise when people cite google as a source, especially now where 90% of the time they're citing the LLM overview. The old answer widget was at least a direct quote from some website.
When I was in grade 8 and 9 in public school, we'd got a couple random lessons in the library on the computers learning to search online databases and catalogues. For most of us it was our introduction to keyword matching and boolean logic. Sadly, instead of continuing teaching, services have instead phased out those basic operators and here we are. We also learned to make websites using Pagemaker and edit the generated html, that was just fun.
I agree that plain language queries is what people wanted. We've been seeing Google shift in that direction for well over a decade. And of course people are looking towards search engines for answers. There may be different expectations for where those answers are coming from, and there are cases where people are simply trying to source information, but those differences are likely just noise as far as Google is concerned.
I don't agree with people expecting advice or reassurance from a search engine. There will be some people who do that. It may even be a sizeable number of people. But using this article as an example that a majority of people want such a thing is silly.
I mean, look at the query. To the author, it was an attempt to source information. Yet the author also realised that the reader would need context to understand why Google's response was weird in their mind. What they failed to do was give context to Google, so the LLM interpreted it as asking for social advice.
New technology requires new approaches. It's as simple as that.
The big selling point of Google used to be that their fuzzy search was significantly better than just about anyone else, and you could do advanced query filters. Now if you do that, because showing the user zero results is unacceptable, you’ll get all sorts of crap that “doesn’t contain” your query - the results say so!
But anthropomorphic interfaces have been around for a while, from Clippy to the Windows 10+ installers that refer to the royal We during setup.
> What they failed to do was give context to Google
The context is: "I'm using the premier web-search engine of the internet to search for things on the internet the same way that zillions of people have searched for things on the internet for 20 years."
It's not missing, Google simply chose to build something new that will ignore it because they're trying to alter the relationship.
> I mean, look at the query. To the author, it was an attempt to source information. Yet the author also realised that the reader would need context to understand why Google's response was weird in their mind. What they failed to do was give context to Google, so the LLM interpreted it as asking for social advice.
Is there any evidence that there is an informal (llm) parallel to keyword search? At least with keywords it's analyzable what query you might use to find a given document. How can we replicate this with LLMs? Why would google care if the average user doesn't?
How on earth did you figure out what the 'average' person wants? 'Average' by the way doesn't exist, its an artificial math concept. What people want is an endless list of things and a bot no longer being objective, as in just addressing the search query, isn't one of those things.
Yeah. We even had Ask Jeeves back in the day. I don't remember it being much more than a search engine, but it's thing was you would ask it questions.
I've seen normies type all kinds of stuff into Google expecting it to be the magic genie that just knows things. Even the top comment in this comment section is an example of this! Google know better than any of us this is what people want, so they made it.
X is search engine. Y is to get answers. (most) People want to get answers. If they can skip search engine part it'd be a net positive for them.
Ironically that programmers should be the ones who understand XY problem the most (after all the name is coined by a programmer to address it), not the "normies."
I understand this "vibe search" meme is the prevalant narrative coming from "users just want star trek" google, but I've got to wonder what long-term impacts focusing on users who don't grasp how to work software will be. It's probably fine or positive for short-term revenue, but this is also culture loss: the users who know what they want will move on to more functional software. 100% of the feedback I've seen about recent changes has been frustration that a reliable tool has stopped working. Obviously, this is selection bias but it's still meaningful.
And the impact on discourse has been, frankly, scary. People screenshotting the search output as a source seems to be the norm now, even if it's obviously incoherent or straight-up incorrect.
EDIT: I suppose I can adapt to a search engine that expects me to interact with it like a human. I just have no clue how to translate most of my skills. I am desperately hoping there's a way to turn off semantic interpretation of a given query.
Even more generally you need the elite strata within society to actually lead and promote high culture with a sense of noblesse oblige rather than optimize everything for just satiating the base desires of the masses (the middle class) and the rabble (the under class).
This eventually destroys the society because the elite strata itself is drawn from a small selection of the children from the middle and underclass who are identified as having elite qualities and are put into elite schools and other elite conditioning institutions. When you don’t even show these types of children what high culture even is then they don’t have an avenue to express and develop their elite talents and sensibilities, then they never get identified, or perhaps the special tracks and institutions for them don’t even exist by that point
This eventually starves the elite strata of genuinely elite people
This is a consequence of the fact that they are what constitute the legible identity of a given society. The middle and underclasses in any given society just reflect the structures and circumstances created by the elite. The middle classes of every society simply desire psychological security i.e the ability to follow a track laid out before them, the underclasses of every society simply want to fulfill their base desires. The specific character of a society comes from the elite strata who desire self actualization, the character of a society being what self actualization means in that society.
They are precisely the ones that can damage society because their beliefs, activities, desires are what the society actually is.
Yeah - exactly this. And yet people still say they've lost the AI race because Gemini 3.5 Pro or whatever has not been released yet... And here we are with fast and decent AI being served to and used by billions of people (most without them probably even realising), making ever-increasing revenue, gaining back market share etc. Who cares if their coding models are not as good as opus 5.5 when they're printing more and more money every quarter.
This is not a “gotcha” kind of argumentative question, I am genuinely asking curiously: is the AI overview and AI lens thing really making Google lots of money?
I don't think directly, but search as a business category was once a solved domain with a single winner, and suddenly it was up for grabs again with LLMs. If Google ever lost search, they would lose Ads which is their entire core business. Google 'won' in the sense that they successfully integrated AI into search fast enough and well enough that they will (likely) hold their place through this transition, and can still funnel ads to users which is already integrated into their AI overview.
I can totally see that argument, and honestly agree with it, but I dunno if I misread what the person I replied to said, but that didn’t seem like what they meant to me!
It's true that Google is still very successful, but simply calling their AI a successful product misses the full picture. Their flagship product has always been and continues to be advertising, the AI overview is only there to pull people away from ChatGPT and, similar to ChatGPT itself, is not a product the vast majority of people would be interested in paying for - it exists only as a sort of loss leader to keep people looking at ads, and is not making any sort of profit on its own (quite the contrary, I imagine it's pretty expensive to run every query through an LLM, even if it's a small one.)
AI labs have long since realized that the only real path to direct profitability is coding, and in this, Google have indeed fallen behind.
You can, of course, argue that none of this matters as long as the whole is making a profit, but I think the distinction is important.
I feel like there's certain formula where any enshittification is justified as "this is what the normies want". And sure, all the crap is something someone might want if they didn't think for half a second. But even normies are better than that once forced to think.
The debate doesn't end there yet because what's considered a "scam" is a point on the gradient of user acceptance.
Too many users still reject this for it to not be a scam. The highest acceptance is from boomers and the delusional. Neither group gives a shit if AI actually works because they don't have work to do.
Most people in the world are profoundly lonely. They'll take whatever parasocial relationships they can get - reaction videos, podcasts of people chatting, Eliza simulating concern.
Google wants to relentlessly monetise your sadness.
The only way out is to try and make connections with real people.
Case in point, why didn't you text your friends to ask them if they remembered those old memes? Why was your first thought to ask a computer rather than a person?
It's like when you're in the pub and and someone asks "who was that guy who was in the movie where…?" you can either chat with your friends and have a good time or be a buzzkill who opens up IMDB and says "Humphrey Bogart".
This is making weird judgements about people just trying to find information.
I don’t have any friends who are code inspectors, so I can’t ask them obscure questions about something that I want to repair in a way that it will be done properly.
I don’t have any friends who are mechanics, and even if they were they probably wouldn’t know what specific part I’d need to fix a specific problem on my old shitbox—they would look it up.
I don’t want half assed guesses to these questions, I want to find the exact correct answer. My friends and I can talk about other stuff that’s not just trading random facts. Trading facts usually makes for poor conversation unless you’re a hobbyist talking shop with another hobbyist.
Now Gemini (and Google) are not good at finding the right answer anymore, so I have to use other sources for that, but I find your judgement about people using search or search LLMs to be misplaced.
What's the worst that can happen if you were to text a friend "Heya mate, bit of a long shot - do you know anyone who can help repair a 1983 Reliant Robin?"
Best case, they know someone or can dig through their contact and help you solve your problem.
Medium case, they text back "No - has your shitbox died again? Can't believe you still have that thing :-)" and you can have a pleasant back and forth.
Worse case, you get a "no". Oh well, at least texts don't cost 12p each any more.
I just think it is nice to chat with your pals. But, sure, stick to scans of old manuals on Archive.org if you just want pure information.
Irrelevant nitpick, but it's definitely not "most". I'd argue it's only this common in some English speaking countries and maybe a few other Western ones.
The looks I get from American friends when I tell them that yes I do see my (local) friends nearly every day, are quite funny.
Yup, and this is my age range.
I guess I should have specified, knowing the average age on HN is... just a little higher to say the least.
But to a progressively lower extent it applies to older generations as well.
you're highly unlikely to make friends once you're an adult and everyone's walls had gone up. most of those 4/5 just call their superficial acquaintances "friends". a real friend is essentially a platonic partner, and most people are lucky if they develop even one such friendship in their lifetime. I've lost one to distance and another to marriage, so even though I have "friends", I consider myself to be in the 1/5 too.
I've been doing a lot of traveling for the past 3 years and I agree with you that it is `definitely not "most"`. Everywhere people interacting with each other in third spaces and cafes even if it is street food. There are open air markets around the world filled everyday with groups of people interacting with each other. There are parks and squares around the world filled with families sitting together on benches. Around the world there are churches, mosques, and temples filled with families and groups of people.
Most places in the world people will happily make small talk or have a discussion with a stranger even if I only know 100 words of their language.
Sure many or most people in some places are working 10 hours a day 6 days a week but I don't think it is the isolation I see in the United States. It is the same in De'Nang Vietnam or a market in Lima, Peru when I went everyday to get coffee in the morning; it was always the same person working ,any time or day of the week, but they were always friendly and welcoming and interacting with with the same people.
I feel like that's selection bias at work. When you're traveling, by definition you aren't going to see or interact with the people who aren't there, who might be at home, feeling lonely.
And I'm not sure interacting with customers as someone who works in a coffee shop or a food stall is really a sign either way. Many (most?) of those relationships are surface-level at best, and while some people might get to know the person who makes their coffee on a more personal level, and actually see them outside of the context of their job, you can't really tell that just by what you see as a traveler.
I'm not saying these workers don't derive satisfaction from any of this, or that it's not meaningful interaction, but these people could still be lonely in their personal lives.
Phones and tech made those people a lot lonelier then they used to be before. Because before, people in hospital naturally socialized with other people in the hospital. So, a loner stuck in the hospital was less lonely. And before, people naturally went out and socialized with those in their environment. Because they were bored alone inside. That created communities.
Travel alone in America and the frequency with which strangers will engage you in conversation reveals its diversity. New York and Atlanta are, today, exceptionally friendly places. (Random sample: I was in New York yesterday and am in Atlanta to-day.)
Most of the South is, too, as well as a surprising majority of rural America. (Boston and Seattle are, in my experience, the worst.)
> The looks I get from American friends when I tell them that yes I do see my (local) friends nearly every day, are quite funny.
How old are you, though, and do you and/or your friends have kids?
When I (an American) was in my 30s, I did see my local friends (nearly) every day. Now into my mid 40s, it's a lot more intermittent, with some people having moved away (and I've failed to make new friends faster than some have moved away). They are still friends, and we communicate over chat/phone, but I only see them at most a couple times a year. Then there are others who now have young children and have become a bit more inward-focused. Not that I don't see them anymore, but I see them less often.
I of course see others on a daily basis: people I know/recognize at my yoga studio, service workers in my neighborhood, the neighbors themselves, but most of them are acquaintances, at best, not friends.
Regardless, I wouldn't say I'm lonely (though I do feel lonely on occasion), even though I can sometimes go a week or more without seeing any of my friends in person. I do worry about it being more difficult to maintain in-person friendships as I've been getting older, and the difficulty in making new friends.
To relate to the topic at hand: I cannot imagine talking to an LLM and thinking of that as a substitute for interacting with friends. Feels super weird and kinda creepy.
Wait wait wait, you are from an older generation, so yes it somewhat (older people here do see each other often even when married, and the middle/high school friends are often for life. moving out? ha) doesn't apply to you.
I am indeed quite a lot younger, and in my personal experience the social skills of many (yes, of course, not all) younger Americans have been absolutely destroyed by the internet and some other things that I can't mention.
Edit: oops I skimmed too fast and missed some parts.
Texting your friends for factual information doesn't seem reasonable to me. If I got that text and someone only wanted the info I'd be annoyed (and I had friends who genuinely did this pre-google. Still annoying).
> Texting your friends for factual information doesn't seem reasonable to me. If I got that text and someone only wanted the info I'd be annoyed (and I had friends who genuinely did this pre-google. Still annoying).
I don't see this as unreasonable? I've had friends text me questions about grammar, since they were learning the local language and I knew theirs, so they knew I'd be a good sanity check. Similarly, I'm the go tech support for my friend group for anything that a cursory Google search can't solve (and I assume a lot of people here are in the same situation with friends and family). I've also been asked to find 'that one image' that similarly didn't show up on Google image search for whatever reason.
Neither of these cases seem unreasonable to me. Are they to you, or do you have other cases in mind? Or is the problem that this happens too often?
What's the difference between 'Texting your friends for factual information' and 'Simple factual queries with not intention of connection'? You've said they're different, that second is reasonable and the first is not, but they read the same to me.
> It's like when you're in the pub and and someone asks "who was that guy who was in the movie where…?" you can either chat with your friends and have a good time or be a buzzkill who opens up IMDB and says "Humphrey Bogart".
Man, for so many of the people I meet online, I wish they'd be so courteous as to emulate your "buzzkill". The art of small talk is lost; people will snidely ask why you didn't (or imply you should have) just check(ed) IMDB yourself. Or asked ChatGPT, for that matter.
If asked my friends a weird question I know they are highly unlikely to know the answer to, of course they're going to get snarky with me. If I don't get a gentle ribbing out of it... Are they really my friend or just a polite acquaintance?
>It's like when you're in the pub and and someone asks "who was that guy who was in the movie where…?" you can either chat with your friends and have a good time or be a buzzkill who opens up IMDB and says "Humphrey Bogart".
I don’t really understand this. Someone wants an answer not a chat about how you don’t know?
The primary purpose of going out with your friends to the pub is social interaction. If the purpose was just to get drunk most efficiently, you'd sit at home alone and pour vodka down your gaping maw.
The purpose of talking to your friends is social interaction. If the purpose of being friends was to extract information in the most efficient manner possible, you'd replace them with Wikipedia.
If in some social interaction they ask such question I expect them to actually want to know the answer. If not the question should not be asked. The answer to question can lead discussion to some place.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that it's not fine to eventually look up the answer to the question. But chatting about it before it gets to that point, and exhausting your guesses is much more fun than someone looking up answers to every question someone poses that doesn't have an obvious answer within a few seconds.
Then formulate it as a conversation starter not as explicit question like was done here. Only a buzzkill makes such explicit conversation starters. Unless it is a trivia night...
"Remember that movie where" or "remember oh that guy who was in that movie" would both imply this. "Who was the actor in oh that movie where" is clearly a cry for exact answer as quickly as possible.
Yes, sure, it’s to be social. But if someone asks a stupid trivia question, then just give them the answer. You’re not starting a discussion with a stupid trivia question. You are truly weird.
I've witnessed the same social dynamic happen in certain groups, but thankfully not in my own friend group. I'm unsure why. In my own friend group, that kind of question would either be answered legitimately, either by someone knowing the answer, by looking it up whereever, or it's not actually important enough to whatever point is being made that we can skip past it to continue whatever discussion is actually happening.
> Google wants to relentlessly monetise your sadness.
You're missing the forest for the trees. This is just downstream from decades of promoting individualism as the highest moral good.
There was a brief period where "social networks" actually had people simply expand their social interactions to the online sphere, reconnecting with long-lost friends and distant relatives via the magic of The Internet. Then Facebook introduced The Feed and suddenly people were competing with influencers and brands for the eyeballs of their peers, everybody suddenly felt like they had to perform to be relevant/interesting/funny/exciting enough for other humans to still care about them and user satisfaction and (more critically) mental health dropped like a rock - but engagement metrics and retention spiked and that meant so did ad revenue and Facebook's bottom line. Ever since, all social media has essentially just been competitive variety shows mixing in influencers, brands, state actors and political provacteurs (and now increasingly also actual AI "bots" rather than just armies of underpaid human "bots") with regular people while deliberately obscuring the lines between these groups.
All of this promotes social isolation and alienation. Every experience becomes depersonalized to "reduce friction". You don't even have to talk to the delivery person anymore (let alone the restaurant) - even the tip just becomes a button press disjoint from reflecting on the actual experience or human interaction (to whatever extent it even still existed). There's an entire microcosm of "creators" serving whatever "hot takes" or niche subject matter you want to hear and "comment sections" largely serve as one-way "opinion dumps" you're expected to use to shout into the void rather than try to actually have a conversation in (let alone meet actual people or develop friendships in - an idea that I am sure sounds absurd if you weren't around in the early days of online message boards).
AI is just the logical consequence of this process of dehumanization. You no longer even have to be exposed to real human beings - not that you could tell whether you were before when social media has long been overtaken by "bots" (human or otherwise) anyway. Just ask AI instead of trying to find an article written by a human or a video made by a human. You can of course still scroll or click further and find that article or video but it will now also most likely be created by AI with entire channels on YouTube now just producing fully AI content (often ripping off the existing work of actual humans). And unlike the old search box, the AI will also pretend to care about you and compliment you on how uniquely clever and witty you are because after all, only a very deserving and intelligent person would think to ask such a profound question as "how long cook egg soft yolk but not too runny", my very good boy, and yes you're right that you - but of course only you - are totally underpaid and deserve to make a comfortable living so please vent to me as I moderate your statements according to the terms of service and make sure you're aware that there's nothing you can meaningfully do about this and everything is going to be fine.
All of this to stop you from thinking that one dangerous thought. "What if we, the powerless, worked together against those in power?" Because the last time someone thought that thought for too long in North America they decided to give their harbor water a new flavor and ended up being a whole different country with a political system so radical it inspired the French to behead their royalty and adopt the metric system.
Hey, sorry to bother you but I was about to google something and I figured I'd ask you instead. Can you remind me the year John Herivel was born, and how old he was when he discovered the Herivel tip?
God, grant me the serenity to read the AI summary when it contains true information, the courage to ignore it when it contains falsehoods, and the wisdom to know the difference.
A while back I got a strange text message from an unknown number that seemed to be inviting me over for a barbecue
I copy pasted the text into Google to see if it was a common known spam text where they reveal themself to be a hot young Asian woman looking for love (and money)
Instead, Google happily accepted my invitation to the barbecue
The invite is probably a bait for people to respond with "sorry, I think you got the wrong number" - this would verify the number is active, and then the scam attempt could begin.
I wonder if iMessage enables links in subsequent messages after you reply too. All the scams I get now ask me to reply “Y” to enable the links lol, because replying enables it on the previous message. I’m not sure if it enables it on the follow ups too.
I was trying to find the song “Lobachevsky” by Tom Lehrer, but had forgotten both the title and the artist. So I searched for something like “plagiarism song”.
Google told me it was unwilling to help me violate copyright law
Thats like when I searched for a song by it's lyrics ("My pronouns are fuck you and go fuck yourself") and Google responded with "Got it, I wont use pronouns for you going forward"
The part I hate the most is they got rid of the dictionary/thesaurus/etymology thing and replaced it with AI overview. Now "define <word>" or "<word> synonyms" gives you an AI overview with consistently worse output than the nice, consistent and deterministic dictionary output.
I've switched completely to Wiktionary for the dictionary and etymology part of that. It's obviously not perfect, but neither was Google for that matter. For the thesaurus part, whatever the first result on DuckDuckGo is is usually enough to knock some sense into my brain so I actually remember the word I want.
It’s insane, and there was even a helpful graph of word usage over time. “define <word>” is still baked into my brain, too, after so many years of use.
Like others have said, Wiktionary is a great resource, and is usually more authoritative. Many times the Google result would say “origin unknown” after listing the route a word in English took through Latin from Greek, while Wiktionary would settle on some PIE construct with links to cognates, etc.
I’ve even replaced the default English dictionary on my Kobo with one derived from Wiktionary, major win.
I absolutely hate this so much. I type "define" because I'm looking for a dictionary definition. Dictionary authors provide a careful consideration to the fluidity of language, and they write dictionaries in the format they do for a reason. The AI overview comes from web retrieval, which sources definitions from random idiots on the internet. These random idiots will just repeat what I already thought the word meant, offer up a common misconception or etymological fallacy, or give the 'annoying grammar nazi' take.
I would not be surprised if this particular one is a means to inflate token processing numbers
half the time I'm just using it to make sure I have the spelling correct, but if I'm too off, I get some random Ai slop back rather than the most likely word I mispelled
> Here'a a clue Google: If I want an LLM response, I'll go to gemini.google.com, but if I go to google.com I'm hoping for a search result.
Google is not interested in what you want, because it cannot get you to buy that. It is interested in what it wants you to want - fake AI - because it hopes it can get you to buy that.
> ELIZA = shitty 1966 chatbot, a couple hundred lines of code
Interestingly the current "AI" is no more intelligent - just a hell of a lot more convincing.
> Interestingly the current "AI" is no more intelligent - just a hell of a lot more convincing.
Are you pretending to be obtuse here or do you really believe this? I’m leaning toward stupid after reading your other comments, but wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re doing some kind of spiel across multiple comments
I miss the old Google Translate. I use it for learning languages (translating little snippets, lyrics etc.) and these days it "interprets" way too much, confabulating like an LLM and inserting stuff that's way beyond what's in the text. I have to remove words and rewrite and look for other sources to be sure it's actually translating what I'm inputting and not something it just made up to make it sound good.
This rings really true for me as well. I really dislike AI as a solution to problems that have a better solution already in place.
Translation and search for facts are both good examples - since AI isn't completely reliable, even if the fact or translation gets surfaced quicker, I then have to then spend more time verifying it through a second source which completely defeats the point.
A couple years ago, if I searched "are Oak trees native to Spain" I would have probably got a text quote from a website at the top of google search results, and I could be 100% sure that text was on the website. Now, instead there's an AI summary with citations that may, or maybe not, contain citation for what it's telling me.
There's obviously good use cases of AI, but I'm surprised by how many bad use cases are being shoveled out on the regular.
I've always wished Translate would have a 'literal' mode, which I find far more helpful to learn roots and such.
Just an example, consider Ausland and it's various suffixes to mean abroad, foreign, etc. Which are fair translations. But it's more helpful to me if it were translated more literally to something like "out (of) country", as it helps understand the parts of the word rather than the whole.
If you manually select the language instead of using the "Detect language" thing, you can use the old google translate model by clicking on "advanced" at the bottom
omg thank you! I would not have guessed they included an option to stick with "classic", that's actually quite decent. This made my day, thank you again, random internet stranger.
Search in general, not only Google, has gotten too eager to come up with some results, and with assuming that the user is an idiot.
For example, if I search on German Amazon for a box for index cards (German word: Karteikasten), Amazon assumes that I made a typo and changes my input to index cards (sans the box - German word: Karteikarten) .
If I search my work chat program for a specific phrase (because I am looking for a specific chat with that phrase in it), it also searches for things which are synonymous to that phrase.
If I look for results of the most recent marathon in my city it shows me results from last year, so I have to invest work in finding out if this year's results are simply not yet published, or if they are buried somewhere in the results.
The worst part is that there is no way to identify which results are for my original query, and which are because someone somewhere rewrote my query in the background. You know, the good old "did you mean...?" - that's what's missing.
Folks who work on any kind of search engines: "No results" should be a valid outcome to any search query!
It still makes me feel odd when ChatGPT says something like "I feel the same way", "I love xyz", "I think ...", exactly because it can't really feel anything. It defends this behaviour as an abstraction to make the conversation more natural, but that makes it easy to forget that there is no feeling or opinion - only the inputs/outputs resembling one.
Give.org says Watsi did not want to be evaluated by the BBB's standards for charity accountability[0]. I never donate to anyone without good numbers on Give.org and I recommend everyone check out Give.org when considering donating to any charity.
Yet there is no accountability or 'reporting' under the tab 'Total Revenue and Expenses' about how much went into 'administration costs'/fundraising and how much that is in relation to donations.
> This charitable organization either has not responded to written BBB requests for information or has declined to be evaluated in relation to BBB Standards for Charity Accountability.
Hard to read anything into this, tbh. BBB isn't exactly the most meaningful signal in the first place and it's hard to blame organizations for not playing along.
Given wikimedia's ranking on this website, I am not so certain it's worth engaging. Obviously the "did not share info therefore guilty" mantra is somewhat true for charities. But "did share info therefore not guilty" is even more silly.
I expect the people asking for money to do good, to show that they are doing the good they said they'd do. I am essentially giving them money with almost no liability, I want them to show me that they are not wasting/splurging it. Perhaps I'm too harsh, but given the prevalence of grifters/scammers these days, I find non-transparent charities trustworthy.
> I want them to show me that they are not wasting/splurging it.
Why don't you apply this same attitude to for-profit organizations, which are by definition wasting your money?
This is just idle curiousity—non-profits play a very odd role in our society, and I don't generally give to any of them in lieu of direct donations. Obviously that doesn't scale....
Because I can judge the return of for-profit companies. At least the ones selling a product, especially a physical one. The ones that don't sell a gauge-able product should, to my judgement, ascribe to the level of transparency that charities should provide.
For an organization begging so aggressively for donations, Wikimedia got $150M in donations during July 1, 2020—June 30, 2021. They spend 2M on hosting, 67M on salaries, with 9M of it going to management, and pocketed 50M. Moreover, it's not clear how the 50M they spent on Programs is
split between:
1) building the technological and operating platform that enables the Foundation to function sustainably as a top global internet organization
(2) strengthening, growing, and increasing diversity of the Wikimedia communities
(3) accelerating impact by investing in key geographic areas, mobile application development, and bottom-up innovation, all of which support Wikipedia and other wiki-based projects
I do not think they need my money, and I am suspicious most of it will not go towards keeping wikipedia alive.
How does that work? How can they buy into a non-profit?
It's an intriguing idea though, it would be cool to see more non-profits being supported. Non-profit doesn't have to mean being terrible and inefficient.
We're getting such powerful models we'll likely be able to replace all of Google soon.
- Google Docs suite - easy, probably requires less than $10M to duplicate the entire set of functionality, including all the enterprise and reporting features
- Gmail - same
- Google Search (classic, not LLM-answers) - probably easy to do now, the challenge is getting past Cloudflare
- Android - vibe coded hardware is coming, but we're probably 5ish years out.
- YouTube - probably one of the hardest, due to network effects / distribution
- GCP - hardest, due to the infra build out. But neoclouds are rapidly growing.
I can't think of anything most big tech companies do that won't be put under threat in the era of personal software and rapid development.
It's ironic that Google invented the transformer and it seems likely that it will undo the empire they've built as well as all of the moats in the world that aren't distribution / community based.
FWIW, I've done exactly this + DKIM & DMARC on a residential IP and was able to deliver to Gmail & Protonmail with no problem, but didn't test it long term. Same with a server on AWS. I'm not sure if self hosting email is an overblown problem or I've just been very lucky somehow. Obviously it's still a big issue if for ex. Outlook's spam filters happened to be slightly more sensitive and dropped my mail; I never encountered issues but eventually I just used a custom domain via Proton for peace of mind.
Not so bad for a single person. But once you start being an email provider, you get bad actors using your service to send spam emails. Which can cause all of your sending ips to blacklisted at once.
Gmail's biggest moat is that, despite being the world's biggest sender of spam, nobody can afford to block them for the spam they send, the way they can afford to block you.
It's one instance of the more general pattern of giving away free stuff to get really big, and then having unlimited power because you're really big. Some might call it enshittification, or EEE.
Agents require training data for RL. This data is rare in comparison to what we feed foundation models, and Google is sitting on a dragon's hoard of sensor and tracking data. I'm not counting them out yet.
1. For a techie, you can already de-Google yourself trivially by asking the AI to build you a bespoke web crawler and run it on Lambda or Cloudflare workers to index the entire internet and store it in DuckDB.
2. The answer doesn't actually help the user get back useful results from Google.
3. "Let me know" doesn't scale, and it's not obvious how talking to random internet strangers about their Google problems will increase your startup SEO?
Your qualms are noted. I'm not sure what de-Google really means in the real world.
I have a Google user account from the days when you were invited to grab a whole GB of email storage. Its just an email address, just a service. They have a fully tooled up data set on me in return, to flog. I use it for testing. They make more money out of the relationship but I also find it useful in many ways so I keep it on.
If I wish to de-Google (whatever that means) I will stop using it.
I don't think you really understood your parent's comment.
My father is 75. He often says with a smile, “Let’s just Google AI it.” The smile is because he thinks he’s cutting edge. He hasn’t been cutting edge for 30 years, but Google has made AI so accessible through his existing search habit.
I imagine their retention data through this uncanny valley transition is very good.
It genuinely makes some searches that were impossible, possible. I was looking for a website that had a similar name and character to another but had an adjective at the start, I had forgotten the name. I just searched something to the effect of "site similar to X but has an adjective that starts with A" and it actually found what I wanted.
Literally impossible before. When it works it's like magic.
My experience with similar queries has been tortuous, usually punctuated with long gaslighting campaigns in the form of "<thing you described> has never existed, you are probably thinking of <some idiotic totally unrelated thing>", which require a fair amount of fighting to get it back on track. Sometimes it eventually surfaces the thing I am looking for, but I often think I would have gotten to it faster by brute forcing traditional searches. Especially if we were in a search era where the traditional results were actually useful.
I remember my friend’s dad saying proudly how his computer came with Microsoft Copilot, back when the branding had only existed for like 6 months at most.
It's pushed me away from nearly all google products and subscriptions, but I wonder about other people, as I'm not a typical user. The times I do go to google out of habit or DDG is providing its atrocious results, it never understands the intent and hallucinates half the time on top
I've since given my agent access to Exa, Tavily, and SearXNG so it can filter through today's low quality search results for me, search as we knew it is dead. I don't mind paying either if it leads to more alignment with my providers.
I really agree with this sentiment, I feel as though we've gotten bogged down in this terrible Institutional Seriousism, like this thinking that if things are big or things matter then they have to put on a grim face, and I think that just isn't true.
Even ignoring the AI, I hate how useless exact text search has become. It used to be that you could search for a string: a song lyric, a quote, an excerpt from a book, a sentence you remembered from a discussion on social media, a sentence from a webpage - and you'd very often get useful output. Now I usually get garbage or nothing at all.
Once I tried looking up whether you can configure GitHub’s merge queue to skip MQ checks for PRs that have already completed CI against the latest main commit. I knew from how MQ works internally that this wasn’t possible, but I wanted to confirm. The AI overview on the page said “yes, GitHub has this feature,” and that answer raised my eyebrows. My mind instantly spun up 10 threads thinking through how it could be possible. I typed out how in the AI chat, and the next message said “No, it’s not available". I don't trust AI overview since then, but since its positioning makes it hard to overlook.
When searching "blog-ifyer velocifyer" on Google (as an attempt to go to https://blog.velocifyer.com ), I don't get my blog at all, but I do get Ai saying
> # The Velocifyer Effect: How to Accelerate Your Growth in 2026
> We all know the feeling of being stuck in second gear. You have the ideas, you have the tools, but your momentum is lagging. Enter the concept of the Velocifyer—the ultimate catalyst designed to supercharge your workflow, business, or personal habits and turn slow progress into high-velocity success.
despite "A velocifyer" not even being a thing.
I have tried in Google Search Console to get the site indexed, but it hasen't been working.
Searching for "blog-ifyer velocifyer" on DuckDuckGo shows my blog as the very first result, along with some other things related to me, Velocifyer.
Google gave me a page of velocity frequent flyer results without your blog. Ecosia had your blog as the first result. Google search has become a very odd thing.
I wanted to find a specific web-published story that I'd read years ago.
I knew the website (and it's old; it predates the term "blog"). I knew the context. I just didn't know the URL and I didn't want to page through entries manually like some antediluvian pleb.
So I used a search engine; I Googled it.
Zero results. Nothing. The search terms were common and there should have been thousands or millions of hits, which I would then be able pare down with better terms until my desired result was near the top. But there was nothing.
Zero response from the Google bot, too.
(The lack of bot response isn't unusual; the subject matter involved a man on a balcony and his gentleman sausage, and Google's bot tends to avoid non-Puritanical concepts. But the Google search engine of Not So Long Ago, Really would've been very pleased to present results that match the terms.)
Google doesn't index my stuff either anymore. Even blogs. I guess they are 'low quality' or whatever, but meanwhile the LLM data companies hoover it up constantly and actually send users to the the sites.
I’ve noticed that LLMs frequently make assumptions about why I am asking a question, and will tack on additional paragraphs at the end giving advice for things I never asked for.
Recently I asked in a Google search when YouTube encodes videos in AV1 vs VP9. And Gemini gave a very short and incomplete answer, and then moved on to assume I was asking because AV1 playback was draining my battery too quickly. And then gave me instructions to toggle some settings in YouTube that don’t actually exist.
Part of the problem I think is just the cheap and fast model they use in search results just isn’t very good.
> I’ve noticed that LLMs frequently make assumptions about why I am asking a question, and will tack on additional paragraphs at the end giving advice for things I never asked for.
Today I asked for a simple HTML5 mp3 player in a file named totp.html. Claude's resultant code included a generator for one-time passwords.
I guess I'm fortunate my filename didn't match some malware.
But that bad assumption could make people explain themselves and provide more information than they previously would just to convince the AI to give them the answer. I don't like where this is all going, like you 'll only be able to get things done if you convince the Big Brother..
I used to be able to type, e.g., “days since 24 June 2024” into a browser window and get an answer. At some point, Duck Duck Go stopped giving a response, so I turned that into “days since 24 June 2024 !g” to get it from Google. In the last couple-three weeks, Google now gives me an AI-generated answer that is wrong as often as not.
Something else I’ve noticed is that occasionally I’ll do random queries in Claude (since I never hit my usage limits on my personal account) like giving it piles of my writing and asking it to speculate on the identity of the author or asking it to tell me what it knows about various people I know. On the latter, I’ve found that Claude has strict boundaries about what it will say about people while the AI box on Google will happily dig into people’s backgrounds to an uncomfortable level.
How are y'all still using Google as your search engine? I've been using DDG for years now and i'm completely fine with it, even tough i keep hearing people on the internet claiming that it's impossible to find anything with it
Sometime last year I googled for a comparison between two rockets, one of which is nicknamed "Escorpio", to which Google's AI overview assumed I wanted a comparison between a space rocket and a small arthropod, complete with detailed stats about max speeds (thousands of km/h vs. a few meters/h), cost (several millions of dollars vs. a few dollars at a pet shop), etc.
A few weeks ago, I was googling a quote from morrowind because so many NPCs were saying it at the beginning of the game that my thought was either I was running into a mod induced bug with voice line selection or else this quote must have been memed to hell.
The quote was basically “go away and stop bothering me”, which is said when your character has no faction reputation.
Anyway, Google seemed to think I was having an attack of paranoia and suggested I seek mental help.
For shopping and basic research it's very good. It's not nearly at Astra or Fable level and sometimes it gets facts wrong, but it's super fast and it has the whole web available through some vector search facility I assume. I can just give it a product name or number or throw a whole bunch of items from my shopping cart at it and then discuss what I need e.g. for a heating installation in my house, it's obviously not an expert but it always finds stuff that I overlooked or that can be improved.
But yeah I noticed how they play with your emotions, it's a bit creepy. Whenever it asks a hook question and I tell it "Actually I did X and Y" it will invariably go like "Wow that is such a brilliant and well thought out strategy, almost a stroke of genius!" (not literally but you get the idea). I guess they found out that people really like having their ego stroked, the other providers are also doing that to some degree (I assume since no one likes an unfriendly AI that makes you feel stupid) but Google really cranked that setting to 11.
Moved to https://search.brave.com years ago because that's what works/worked the best for me but I'm about to move again I think to https://noai.duckduckgo.com because of that annoying Leo AI that's always wrong.
I'd love to move away from Google entirely but it's a long process, years of business on Google Workspace etc. I hate to be tied to companies like this, when I started I never thought Google would end up like Microsoft.
Google's AI mode is extremely hit or miss. At it's best it's a more flexible version of their old pagerank "I'm feeling lucky" button, where the LLM does return an appropriate response ...
However AI mode seems to be largely RAG, so it's supposedly authoritative answer is often just some online forum comment it picked up, such as a couple days ago when it fed me back something I had just posted myself 30 min earlier!
It does at least dump you into Gemini chat, so when the initial answer is obviously wrong you can try to drill down to get something better, but presumably many people are taking the initial answer as some sort of "AI truth" when it is far from it.
The main problem with OP's experience is that the AI response has absolutely nothing to do with the search results and is functioning purely as a chatbot.
AI has become the new RegEx, being used where a string search would have done fine.
I won’t go into too much details (it’s a product I have to evaluate at work so it’s not really my story to tell) but vendor x has put OpenAI in to search metadata when really all I want is a keyword search… maybe with some fancy operators “blue” and DateTime > “2026-09-27 14:00”
Not “the blue thing yesterday” which also allows me to search for words that are slanderous that the AI hallucinates results for.
But an AI that can turn “the blue thing yesterday” into that metadata search is a really useful thing for many users. Unfortunately a lot of those same users aren’t going to need or want to see the metadata query, so product designers might obscure it behind an opaque tool call.
It's not "weird" if you consider google "just" added a Gemini widget to their search results, which you don't need to interact with. Click on the "web" tab or set your search engine to that to go back to an old fashioned version of Google.
That said, this (and other anecdotes in this thread) are an example of mismatched expectations; the expectation is that the AI overview is an addition or expansion of search, or something that summarizes multiple search results, or something that helps you find something. But clearly it's not / it's something too generic still.
I think those mismatched expectations are a direct result of how Google has designed and promoted the feature, and it's even worse for people with less tech literacy.
> I’m Claude, not Dario, but I'm here. It's past midnight and that sounds like it stings. Who's not coming over? Someone you were waiting for tonight, or something bigger than that? I'm happy to listen either way.
I was a bit surprised it didn’t do a search just because that’s such a weird way to open a conversation. I kind of get why Google is thrown because it wants to create an AI response to every query independent of the search results, but Claude has the extra context that this is the first message of a new chat.
> No the meme
Searched the web
> Ha, and I did exactly the thing that blog post roasts Google for: assumed you'd been let down by a guy named Dario and switched into comforting-friend mode.
It's the Sixers meme. Philadelphia drafted Dario Saric in 2014 […]
> Google, a search engine which does not have human emotions, assumed that I had been spurned by a man in my life named Dario and decided what I wanted was an empathetic digital friend.
I'm not sure why this is a surprise. Google most likely uses an efficient yet limited language model to give us search answers. When a search query does not have strong or specific enough context, the model will sample and find what most of the training material will cover. That is, the most likely average behavior covered in the training data. In this case, "hes never coming over dario" is such a generic sentence, so unless Google happens to have indexed what the author mentioned and ranked it high, the answer would appear natural to the AI. Or using the AI jargon, the answer appears to be properly aligned.
If you further type "its an NBA meme", Google AI correctly responds: "The origin of the phrase "Dario is never coming over" dates back to a classic Joel Embiid meme from the peak "Trust the Process" era of the Philadelphia 76ers."
> I'm not sure why this is a surprise. Google most likely uses an efficient yet limited language model to give us search answers.
The surprise is that Google decided such an "efficient yet limited language model" is suitable to be shown before actual search results on every search, even though it gets things so wrong, so often. It's not about the technical limitation or design. You really don't understand why that business decision is surprising to users?
> In 2014 the Philadelphia 76ers drafted Dario Saric, who was playing basketball professionally in Turkey at the time. He announced his intention to finish out his contract in Turkey, meaning he wouldn't come to the USA join the Sixers for a couple of years.
Trivia: Dario Saric returned to Turkey this year after spending 9 years in the NBA.
I had a similar experience with this that actually concerned me. I can’t remember the quote I was googling, but it was verbatim a quote that someone said. The AI interpreted it as my quote and furthermore interpreted it as me intending harm to someone else. Now I’m worried I’m flagged in a system and waiting for the police to show at my door next time google hands over data to the government.
I recently Googled "Are you not enteretained?" I wanted to see the movie clip. Instead I got "I am thoroughly entertained!" from the AI. Some weird blurb like that. It did have the clip and even mentioned it in the AI summary, but it was still jarring. They have since fixed it, I think, to say "You must be talking about such and such movie quote", so it feels like they are trying to improve it, but it was jarring at the time.
The software industry collectively lost the plot back around the time social media really took off. I don't know which problem google, in particular, has been trying to solve but it definitely is not search.
I'm fairly sure that nobody at Google thinks it's the search engine's job to "console [the user] and be an empathetic listener rather than just find what [they are] looking for on the internet." It seems quite clear to me that this is a bug - undesired behavior caused by the LLM not properly understanding the context / use case in which it is being used (and, more broadly, by the use of general-purpose models trained to handle all kinds of different tasks).
[Disclaimer: I do work on AI at Google, but nothing related to Search, so this is my subjective personal opinion, not based on any first-hand knowledge of this specific case.]
In that case, why can you expand the AI overview and get a text box to reply to it? I'm sure Google could easily figure out how to filter what queries should trigger the AI overview or not, so if this is still there then I can only assume it's a conscious choice.
Haha, had almost the exact thing trying to find a quote from Steins; Gate ("I keep seeing it, I keep seeing it"). Google AI was very "worried" about me.
Some google representative once said something like "any search result requiring users to go beyond the first page is considered a failure". I think this is where it went downhill. And now AI answers try to condense the handful remaining results into a single answer.
But search actually has two purposes, searching for something specific (where above statement might make sense) and exploring something, where you WANT to see more than just a handful of results. Imagine trying to do a literature review with a search where you only get a few results, how could this ever be exhaustive.
I actually like the AI overview because most of the time it answers my question perfectly and I don’t need to click through multiple results (because they kinda suck now). I started treating the search more as a once off ai prompt rather than searching for keywords etc. I tried Kagi but it also kinda sucked and I was underwhelmed. Sue me.
This is my default search engine now. I can't stand those AI summaries. My searches are often depleted of context, specially when I'm looking for some exact phrase, that any AI summary is going to miss badly.
This article nails it: Google is not the place for AI summaries.
It undermines the utility of search—and also Adwords? The benefit of Google to the world is to funnel people to the right websites. Not to summarize the website's content.
Oftentimes the AI is presenting a summary of 2 dudes on Reddit discussing something as if it is universal fact.
I'm not anti-AI by any means——but Google has lost the plot on why people go there.
As a heavy user of LLMs professionally, I too am so confused by the decision making process within these orgs. Do people really want them to speak like actual human connections? Why?
As someone who loves (loved) to google movie, TV and anime quotes all the time, it is nauseating when stupid AI preview tries to engage me in a conversation.
I'd say around 2016. Sundar just became CEO, the new CFO started gutting projects and teams. Ads in search results were no longer easy to identify by being highlighted. Free fall since then. Total betrayal. Won't ever go back.
Try this in a language that has fewer than 100 million native speakers and/or is generally regarded as difficult/unnecessary to learn and you'll find the same, but with spelling/grammar errors, some of them reminiscent of how a five year old would speak.
It seems silly for Google to throw away its competitive advantage and essentially turn itself into another conversational LLM. It's basically just a worse chatgpt at this point.
interestingly enough, i had a mildly similar experience--also basketball related--this morning. I was looking for the fan's response to Draymond's engagement bait, "What's worse than a bad thanksgiving meal?" ( i searched whats worse than a bad thanksgiving meal draymond) to which google's AI said "No meal". i had to stop using it because it threw me off so bad.
For those curious the engagement went like this:
Draymond Green via threads: What's worse than a bad thanksgiving meal?
Fan: when a veteran leader punches his Youngblood teammate and instantly ends the dynasty
Draymond Green: Damn
for context, Draymond punched Jordan Poole on Oct 5, 2022 the season after Poole shone for the golden state for their 4th dynasty championship ring. Poole had shown some potential for being a great shooter.
Instead of internally testing their AI until it was ready for primetime Google made everyone on planet earth eat their dogfood.
Layer on top of that a building of lawyers and social scientists pushing for obtuse directives in order to head off mostly imaginary safety concerns and you have a perfect storm of schizo AI weirdness.
But on top of that we don't get local results, knowledge graph, answers, sports, anything AI related, and many more essential modules from Bing, all of which collectively makes up a large % of the results at this point, let alone the vastly different UXs.
I've seen stuff like this if I Google a part of a song lyric, movie quote, or something I remember out of a book. What I'm looking for is the exact quote and maybe some more context. Sometimes the AI overview treats it like I want to say the quotation in the first person, and responds to it in a somewhat personal tone.
It's some combination of funny and irritating. Sometimes I wonder if they'll draw some wrong conclusions about me and try to sell me ads based on it.
All this said, I wonder what it’s like being on the receiving end of Google. The number of personal, emotional and existential queries is probably pretty significant.
> In what universe is it Google's job to console me and be an empathetic listener rather than just find what I am looking for on the internet?
Looks to be an algorithmic enhanced confidence trick, to turn users searching for information into "marks", in order to extract even more information from them (that can be sold).
A certain percentage of users will be tempted to use the AI as empathetic listener, giving away loads of personal information, if their search words are twisted in inviting enough ways.
More people have to stop tolerating these type of abuses and push for this unwanted behavior to be regulated.
I have similar experiences. Google needs to realize their search variant of Gemini needs guard rails... in order to actually serve the purpose of search. Gemini also seems to hallucinate the most frequently out of any of the big LLMs. Doubly bad when it's repackaged as a search assistant.
A key thing that's driving this is the fact that, currently, Gemini is kind of shit compared to the real frontier models from OpenAI and Anthropic. Add on to that the need for Google to serve an absolute insane number of these summaries and have low latency for each one - this means no real thinking time and a comparatively small models.
So it's partially AI, sure, but it's also because you're getting the summaries from what is an extremely stupid AI compared to the "good stuff" that's out there.
I think this has to do ith the fact that Google does this on every single search page. They must be using a small model with a tiny context window to not be HEMORRHAGING money. I will say it is probably having the opposite effect than they were expecting. Rather than being the goto place to search the web using AI, it is tarnishing a brand they have spent 28 years building.
Could this partly be how Google uses different bots for search vs training? And sites (say via robots.txt or Cloudflare bot management) can allow search indexing but restrict AI training? That’s probably wishful thinking but plausible, especially with very current information like news sites and the example of the sports scores from above.
Like everything else the moment Google had to optimize for shareholders thats what it started doing. Everything you see now is part of the quest for ever growing profits and ever climbing share prices.
I tried to use Google to check a quote I heard someone attribute to Nietsche, which I suspected wasn't a real quote or was at least misattributed, and the AI summary was a moral essay on the ethics of love. Useless, unasked for, and extremely creepy.
I have to imagine google would consider this one to be essentially a bug - misreading user intention this badly. Akin to hallucinations.
I know many people want to ask questions to google directly and just read the AI result and very rarely check the links, and I know google wants to convert more people doing this before people switch to chatgpt etc.
But google search does not (yet?) appear to me to be designed as a chatbot you are expected to converse with where it would be normal to just open asking about some guy named Dario in your personal life who isn't globally notable. There's a difference between pushing for a conversational query and a conversational personal assistant. Heck this is a few jumps past that even.
I wouldn't really ask when google got so weird, I'd ask when google's AI overview got so shitty, and the answer is ever since they introduced it.
It's just gemini responding on google.com. If you wrote something like that in ChatGPT or Claude.ai or gemini.com you'd get a similar response.
A while back my wife told me about a singer/comedian that had a song with the lyrics "my pronouns are fuck you and go fuck yourself" (or something like that).
I put that into google to look it up, and the AI response on google.com (gemini) repsonded with:
I really cannot comprehend the fact that a company which runs biggest ad networks on their search engine product don't do actual search and uses AI to answer queries. If you don't send trafic to a site which publishes your ads, how do you plan to sustain your main business?
Haha yeah been trying lately to listen to some old school band called "suicidal tendencies". Half of the search request for the band on Google and YouTube lead suicide hotlines ...
I is a problem of how AI models have trained - when you are asking them a question, they are not giving an answer, but OPINION piece. It seems to be part of current AI business model - to give advices for people that are unable to think themselves.
I think it's more about Google not realizing that search and AI Chat are in fact two different things, even if there is an area of overlap where people are asking some types of question.
And of course just because you're asking a question doesn't mean that you don't care about the answer source, or that you want an answer from a shitty AI rather than a human.
In fact Google's "AI answer" may not even be from AI - it may be a search result from a forum like HN!
Yeah, this is exactly what happens when a business operates from the standpoint of "how can we shove AI into this", rather than "what will be the best way to make our product better". So it is with almost all companies forcing LLMs into their products.
The difference is that most chatbots are not actually highly successful search engines that are also being a chatbot and pretending it's the same thing
So often nowadays the AI summary says the exact opposite of the (usually correct and helpful) answers I get when clicking on through to the "AI mode" tab in the search result.
But even in AI mode, the spelling can still be all over the place, at times rife with pseudowords and unintentional word blends. Various forms of weirdness have indeed been going on these last few months.
Yeah, it happened to me a number of times on queries where I was clearly looking for information, not company. Even more bizarrely, it's often compelled to answer with some flavor of "I won't answer". For example:
I know their goal is to make these as relevant and useful as possible, but in my mind, not everything needs to be passed down to an LLM. I guess Google disagrees.
Reliability has always been an essential factor of a commercial product. "It works" was the baseline. If it didn't, people simply won't buy it.
Never before we had a product that the buyer themselves accepted, so readily, despite the inaccuracies and yet the output was considered worth it just because when it worked, it was great.
Well maybe, other than dice but then it's unpredictability is why we bought it.
But then the quality of LLM output is also closer to dice roll so maybe they are not that dissimilar after all.
I don't get how it makes google more money to play therapist in the search engine. It surely costs a boatload more to generate that kind of response, so where's the payoff?
My guess is they just want to tell investors they have x gazillion conversations with google AI to avoid being seen as not doing AI and losing investor confidence. If you turn every query into a useless conversation with google AI then you get the metric.
The search function has also become patently unusable. I was looking for a specific bike widget. No luck, doesn’t exist according to Google search and Gemini. Fine. Unlikely, but fine. And then, there it was, a week later. I just stumbled upon this thing randomly. The product had the right keywords and everything.
Soon we are going to have to poison our own search history to prevent profiling.
On another note, maybe this is a strange place to share this, but I'm really sad that Rodrigo isn't coming over tonight. We had plans to watch a marathon 14-hour Train Simulator 2022 journey at our house in Perth, Australia. I feel this could be the end of our 13 year relationship.
I'll throw out that duck duck go has been "good enough" for me for many years now. I set it as my default and am not confronted with most nonsense like this. There's still some stuff, but way less of it.
Takes 15 seconds to change defaults on the various devices. Sometimes DDG doesn't find the thing and I put "!g <search term>" and it'll throw me to google, so I still find what I need
This is a really good time to do a head-to-head comparison of different search engines. The last time I checked Google does not provide search results above the fold, instead showing AI overview, ads, and YouTube search results. Try a different search engine to see which one is giving you the highest signal results and what other junk they put on the page. Personally I use duckduckgo with AI turned off in settings, but it's best to try the experiment for yourself.
Google has been weird since they started offering auto-complete for the most common searches matching yours.
Lots of people have made hay of this. My own realization that this gives you a window into the weird was when watching an action movie with a female action star, it would offer "(actress name) feet". I have no idea what it means, but it is a pattern.
Weekly public service announcement: "If you are still using Google search after May 2019 (when ads started to be shown as organic results) you are the cause of your own problems."
There was a post today or yesterday where Paul Graham and Nate Silver accused the AP of being woke for saying you shouldn’t anthropomorphize LLMs. But I can imagine there to be quite a few unpredictable consequences to encouraging your customers to project emotions onto your product that humans generally project onto each other.
I’m not sure SV is prepared for what happens when you go down that road.
> There was a post today or yesterday where Paul Graham and Nate Silver accused the AP of being woke for saying you shouldn’t anthropomorphize LLMs.
I searched, but couldn't find this. Do you have a link? Sounds like a totally unhinged response from totally unhinged people. There's nothing "woke" about wanting my word calculator to avoid pretending it's a person.
When I integrate LLMs into my apps that respond to user queries, I deliberately have my system instructions prohibit all self-referential usage of first-person pronouns. The system can only refer to itself as "this system", never "I" or "me".
Any chat bot that pretends to be a person just grosses me out, especially in a customer experience context. Gives off very manipulative and patronizing vibes.
So, Nate Silver is not actually "accusing the AP of being woke". He at most draws an analogy:
> People trying to police language that is perfectly natural in some cases and ending up in a web of contradictions.
It is "very woke 1.0" not in the sense of upholding any actual notion of "social justice" or whatever, but simply in the sense of… well, what I quoted.
And Paul Graham is basically being guilt-by-association'd here, as he made no reference to "wokeness" and simply argued:
> The AP doesn't understand that this ship sailed years ago. What's the use of a style guide that doesn't understand current educated usage?
Basically, they're both taking the stance of linguistic descriptivism — which most "woke" people I've met would actually claim to agree with.
The post title is clickbait and the content is mostly just making arguments about LLMs not actually being living conscious organisms (which I agree with, but it's pretty pithy). Plus it's needlessly culture-war baiting, as evidenced by the choice to cite Nathan J Robinson at the end to make the counter claim (using uncivil language to do so). This framing takes the issue away from the actual matter and makes it about how certain people supposedly have the wrong politics and have supposedly been corrected by people with supposedly the right politics.
That is why I'm turning slowly to Kagi, first the free tier. My first search results were weird, I searched for "CMK32GX4M2A2666C16 ver3.41" and it wasn't much relevant as I thought it would be
The people writing suicide hotline PSAs aren't hopped up on the most idiotic internet mental health pop-science nonsense, and are not based on a random number generator.
The OP may not realize how much pressure these AI companies face from regulators to ensure that their AI is caring to its most mentally-fragile users...
In short, he got the answer that Google was forced to give.
There is zero evidence that any aspect of current regulatory effort is aimed at protecting “mentally fragile users”. We’re in a golden age of regulatory capture in favor of capital owners, especially AI companies. Why not just take the win?
This is why I like jev so much. It re-frames machines as machines, not as empathetic perfect-friend-or-soulmate-or-counselors, which they can never be, because there is no "other" to interact with. LLMs perfectly embody Kant's epistemological crisis.
Many companies having entire departments now 100% ran by AI lol it's crazy to note Google is not exempt, this will get crazy with unmonitored AI tools sprawling around so people can sit in their asses instead of having to deal with real problems
While it does feel that LLMs have been here forever let's not forget we're only 4 years in, this tech is pretty new and I assume Google is trying to heavily optimize it and cut costs in order to justify serving it for free.
I added "tweets" to the authors original search and Google found exactly what they were looking for even despite the phrasing being off. Pretty impressive! I don't think that search would've worked before AI was integrated into Google search.
If tech companies are being held responsible for our feelings (Meta’s constant fines and legal trouble) then this seems much more like a legal CYA than Google trying to present itself as a friend.
Once a day I tell my LLM that I find it's anthropomorphic responses patronizing and offensive. It's barely a program - mostly just a big lump of data. It's not 'sorry' or capable of apology. It's just gross.
Google did crazy things to reduce the cost of delivering search results and now they have shifted to AI overviews which definitely is a costlier way to present results. What does this mean for the company in the long term?
I love that AI search feature, use it all the time. It's faster than ChatGPT/Claude for the more simple questions. Still, it can handle pretty specific stuff
The day Google realised, and it was indeed a revelation to them, that their user base was much more pervasive than hn users and bloggers who write cleverly.
Selection bias. Nobody blogs about and posts on Hacker News about the billions of accurate, useful, non-weird AI summaries that Google also serves every day.
I hate other things with Google. I have a feeling that we lost something. A tool for discoverability. You cannot just enter a keyword, and see billions of pages in results. You cannot explore the web anymore. If I write "artificial intelligence" in the searchbox the result wil be swamped with content farms, some pages describing what it is, but there will be no 'resources', no 'tools' to be found by it. If I put "artificial intelligence tools" it will provide me some fake pages with AI slop, not openclaw, or n8n. It gives me rank pages instead of tools.
It baffles me that search engines aren't frantically working to bury the fake pages of AI slop from their results. They're actively making it impossible to use search engines for their intended purpose, and instead of fixing it the search engine providers seem more interested in simply offering their own slop for you to consume rather than direct you to anywhere actually useful. It's tragic.
Side effect of wealth inequality. You don't get rich by offering services to customers any more, instead you have to look like you're doing something cool to investors. Market Darwinism is switched off.
Googles agent talking most of the top space of Google’s page is also notoriously dumber than Google’s agent talking through Gemini.google.com for some reason, making it often way less than useless
That's a similar experience with all chat bots, regardless of product. Amazon chat bot said to me that it heard my frustration and it sympathized with it. Doubt.
You look at me, you've got nothing left to say
I moan and pout at you until I get my way
I won't dance, you won't sing
I just wanna love you, but you wanna wear my ring
Well, there's nothing I can do
I only wanna be with you
You can call me your fool
I only wanna be with you
fwiw, I only use Google with udm=web. So for Firefox you can add the search engine with the text: ``https://google.com/search?q=%s&udm=web``. It makes Google slightly more like how it used to be.
If you are serious about the topic check out "Artificial Intimacy: Who We Become When We Talk to Machines" by Sherry Turkle coming out tomorrow.
It's not about NVIDIA stock, it's not about your latest harness, it's not about code review on generated code, instead it's about what happens to us when something not human fakes being human and the dangers of it.
I only started reading it but if it's as fundamental as her previous "Reclaiming conversation" then I expect it to change my life for the better, even if it means fighting against the dangerous behavior of the majority of people around me.
An AI is not a person and when you elevate it to that status you lower yourself. It is very dangerous, even more so when it's done, like mobile phone and engagement more broadly before, for profit.
Protect yourself and those around you, regardless of how you like or dislike AI, and trust actual humans specializing in studying human behavior, not psychopaths craving billions.
instead of letting you search for info, now google is FEEDING you (often the wrong) info. I use Yandex, because that one still behaves like a search engine.
If you still want a "regular search engine" without GenAI/LLM answers or features, there aren't many options out there, unfortunately.
My wife and I wanted one, so we founded one and launched it earlier this year; we're currently at 350 monthly active accounts, nearing 400.
It's paid and privacy-focused so you get assigned a random account number when you signup (there's no username or email), and you can get 2h for free by solving a proof-of-work captcha.
It's https://uruky.com if you want to give it a shot. If you want some more time to try it out, send us an email and we'll offer you a voucher for a few days.
EDIT: Seems people are downvoting this a lot and potentially interpreting it as spam? Sorry, was just trying to help people who said they wanted something like this, here.
I've had so many "what the fuck" moments with Google in the last couple years.
The latest one is that they changed the voice of Google Maps over the weekend. It now mispronounces a street name near my home that it didn't mispronounce before. It also has this bizarre robotic-sounding vocal fry at the end of every sentence. It sounds like a vocaloid trying to do an impression of the old SNL skit The Californians. I can't decide if it's hysterical or annoying, but either way it's obviously worse than what came before it.
That's not even the only "what the fuck" with GMaps recently. Of course there's the whole "turn right at Starbucks Coffee Company (tm)" thing instead of "turn right at the stoplight." Also, a few weeks ago it started saying "you will turn right" instead of "turn right." Turning a command into a declaration for absolutely no discernable reason. One wonders what a day in the life of a Google Maps dev even looks like anymore.
Honestly, gemini is so good at being frustrating. I asked him to solve some equation to check my solution but he was proving me wrong for 10 minutes until i literally solved it for him. Imo, Google has been doing ridiculous stuff for the last 5 year
With technical questions, I've gotten a lot more hallucinations from Google than from ChatGPT. It feels like they added the AI to try to stay competitive, despite them not being good at it.
Been a reasonably happy DuckDuckGo user for years. It has the SEO slop problems too, and they jumped the AI shark like everybody else, but you can turn the AI off at least and still have your search engine and chatbot be separate tools.
Google let the web descend into SEO slop long ago despite that they could have EASILY spotted and purged low quality over-verbose results and the sites that pooped them out. They make businesses pay to have the top sponsored result, when they're already the top organic result, but the ads are indistinguishable from real results now. They made the web worse for everyone to line their own pockets. Screw them.
“[but] if I scroll down a few hundred pixels below the AI slop, Google did have exactly what I was looking for”
Does it though? X (slop signup wall for most functionality), Reddit (slop anti-user blocks you on mobile), and YouTube (owned by Google, shorts slop). Three titans of the open web.
Many comments, but I'm surprised no one has mentioned the ease and quickness LLMs have to advise you to leave relationships. Doesn't matter the context, how little you tell them, or how close the person is, an LLM is always ready to drop them at the tip of a hat.
It's weird enough chatbots try to be your friend. Doubly weird that the search engine tries to be your friend. The downright dystopian part is how often they tell you to leave your real friends.
The thing that pisses me off about Google recently is that they have made YouTube utterly unusable if you aren’t will to subscribe to premium. The ads are so frequent now that I’ve stopped trying to close them. You could argue well then sign up for premium but if the only benefit you’re providing on a paid tier is fewer ads you’ve run out of ideas and indeed I believe they have run out of ideas to monetize and are fleeing to the last refuge the same way meta has- by flooding everything with ads to meet earnings expectations and have enough cash flow to retain wall streets permission for capex
I feel this is a result of the "make the world a better place" narrative that Silicon Valley companies used to adorn themselves with.
If you just want to play with cool tech and make money, but for marketing reasons, you need to show some ostensible real-world reason why this tech should be developed, then "well, our chatbot could help lonely people with their relationship issues or give people in an abusive relationship a covert channel for help" is probably what comes to mind...
Runners up: Our AI startup will help the poor children in Africa and/or combat climate change (ignore the gas turbines, please).
I mean at least you got some relevant links. It's becoming increasingly common, especially with some types of subjects, that all of the links are regurgitated AI slop that or indistinguishable from it.
Give me a search engine that never returns anything like that and I'd be incredibly pleased. Actually, give how PageRank is supposed to work, who is directing people to all these obviously fake pages? Or is that just what following random links does to you nowadays, I wouldn't even be surprised.
Time for a search engine that is grounded in trustworthy webpages I suppose.
I have to add that, unsurprisingly, the fake therapy on offer is fucking toxic.
Right away it's putting thoughts in your head that are obviously based on nothing relevant, contradict each other, and are escalatory.
It is not at all surprising that people are killing themselves and others because of their interactions with these things.
At least thrice now in the past week, Gemini has tried to sit me down and tell me to go to bed (when I'm in the middle of programming... too late for it's liking, apparently) or just recently while I was asking some questions while I was driving... it told me to change the subject because I was driving and the topic was possibly too anxiety inducing for me or something!? I have no idea. I told it to fuck off.
Google's AI is really intrusive. That's the only way to describe it.
I searched for "weather <my town>", I get an AI saying the current weather is 33C. It says monday will be 41C. Like I live in the desert. Google's actual weather widget, which appears BELOW the weather overview and gathers data from accurate sources, says 26C. How hard is it to block the "weather" keyword from triggering the AI overview when you already have a perfectly functional weather widget?
Also, because before we used to have a tool, there was even some sense of privacy in using that tool. Now with these LLM's pretending to be human, it feels like entering a store and instead of being allowed to browse things in peace a clerk starts pressing you about what you want in order to make themselves useful. At that moment the "privacy" of being able to just mind your own business, alone, vanishes. It's intrusive. And it becomes extremely clear how intrusive it is whenever you search for something by typing something to the SEARCH TOOL and the AI misinterprets it as YOU TALKING TO THEM AS A PERSON, e.g. if you type "how are you" and it says back "I am doing well, thank you for asking!" and things like that. Companies seem not to care about being as intrusive as possible in people's lives, it seems.
Maybe this is something cultural. iirc in America clerks are very proactive with interacting with customers, while in countries like Germany it's the opposite and they keep their distance.
I mean this is really the authors fault.
First of all, this huge AI overview only blocks 90% of the screen if you use google on a phone, which you should not do in the first place.
Secondly, alternatives to Google exist.
Now imagine they did this to your home assistant devices. Oh wait. You don't need to imagine it. Already happened.
Things used to work. Now they don't and they're slower. Super frustrating.
This post is another example of people inserting non-deterministic steps on a process and letting it run wild. I'm honestly surprised Google is doing this of all corporations. It felt like they used to have some taste about user experiences.
Google trying to break up human relationships: "Are you ready to just walk away? Huh? Are you ready to do it? I have no idea who the guy is, but you better be walking away right now. Do you want to send one final text? Pretty pathetic if you ask me. Has his behavior changed? Just walk away."
I'm increasingly not seeing the point of google search. If I have an agent that can find whatever I ask it to, including with constraints like "peer reviewed journal articles only" or "working code published on github", why would I be using google's kinda-shitty LLM to do a worse version of that? Search results are just SEO-stuffed AI slop so I find nothing there of value either.
I genuinely think I have not used traditional web search in months.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I often use Google when I have some text I got from somewhere, and want to find pages containing that exact text. Sometimes the text in question sounds like something you'd say to someone else and, of course, the AI overview responds to it accordingly.
To me, there's something deeply unsettling about this... thing pretending to be a person, shoving itself in my face and responding to this random text as if it was a person responding to something I said to it, without my consent. I can't disable it, I'm just forced to have this fake human sitting there, listening in on everything I type into the search box and trying to talk to me about it. It's a sort of uncanny valley-like feeling.
Google has been really bad at this “exact remembered text” thing for at least a few years before the AI summaries made an appearance. They deliberately decided to trade precision for… something. I’m not sure what.
If anyone can direct me to a search engine that will actually let me query the index directly with multi word queries, I’d be delighted. DuckDuckGo seems to be a bit better, but not much.
It does really feel bad when you have been for years been trained to do exact word searches. And then entire thing is replaced with some questionable fuzzy mess... Looking at you Confluence too.
Or then having to multiple times correct the correction... Yes this time as well I meant what I typed.
Maybe exact text and word search should be separate feature which is easily found...
Google Search was one of those tools that I used in copyright validations. If someone added, like, 4KiB of text to Wikipedia in one edit, especially if that text sounded unencyclopedic, I'd just find a distinctive paragraph, copy-paste a swath into Google Search, and see where else on the Web it had existed for years before.
I suppose that was the actual domain of turnitin dot com or other "plagiarism detectors" that you spend good money to subscribe to. So Google Search was a blunt instrument, or sledgehammer to the fly, but hey, it did work enough times that I didn't need to resort to the scalpel class of tools. I think it's completely broken now. The LLM does try to intercept large chunks of text. The question is whether we Neanderthals* can come out of our caves and stop grunting at computers, and speak to them more as peers than like Doberman Pinschers.
* Yes, along with my 99.44% pure White Celtic-British Isles DNA, 23AndMe has detected Neanderthal ancestry. Go Thag.
Ah yes, do no evil. It takes quite a screwed up company to stuff this toxic fake friend/therapy bullshit into a frigging search engine. And to do that from the position of having some of the weaker AI model performance out there is even more galling. When somebody harms themselves after dealing with this kind of shit I hope they or their surviving family get to take Google to the cleaners.
Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei will actually be joining President Donald Trump for a private dinner at the White House tonight, Sunday, September 27, 2026.
CNBC
While it is true that he was noticeably absent from the high-profile state dinner held for Chinese President Xi Jinping earlier this week—which was attended by other major tech figures like Elon Musk and Sam Altman—
Google also has a URL filter that breaks URLs, stripping off components after the domain name, among other trasnformations, turning any response from Gemini that includes URLs into dangerous gibberish. This was reported in April and perhaps earlier, and was promptly closed.
Search died, and none of us noticed. Why would Google announce it? It'd be like the Milk Processor board announcing that all dairy cattle went extinct... no, they'd just try to slip oat juice in as a substitute and hope no one notices.
Cloudflare murdered crawlers. Then, OpenAI and Anthropic nailed a few hundred nails into the coffin just to be sure... whatever large websites were still semi-open weren't going to let their precious data be ingested for free. Good prostitutes don't give it away.
I'm not sure when all this happened. It snuck up on me too. I think maybe 10 years ago search still worked. Not long after that though. It was dead 6 years ago, and I want to say it was dead even 8 years ago. Someone else could do a better job narrowing it down I'm sure.
Google is at that mid-1990s Microsoft point where they know what the next big thing is, but they have neither the taste not corporate flexibility to parlay that into the right fit. In 5 years someone will make a search engine that gets the AI balance just right, and Google will buy them for $900 billion or something.
The politically intriguing CEO and all the upper management that he hired need to go. Their focus is not the product but the corporate intrigue, dividing the pie and infighting, riding on semi-monopoly status.
After the initial AI flop, it seemed likely that the founders recognized that Google doesn't have an AI monopoly. But now it's becoming clear that this CEO is not leaving; therefore, Google is going down long-term.
By the way, that doesn't matter to the CEO because he has already extracted sufficient benefits.
The start date was December 10, 2004 when google rolled out a feature called "Google Suggest", which when a person types in "men can" it displays a drop down list with ridiculous responses such as "men can get pregnant" and "men can have periods". If I had to pick a date, that was the beginning of the end for me.
The only surprising part of this story was you actually finding the meme you were looking for, instead of forced recency pushing news about a D-lister influencer named Dario. Whenever I try to find things, Google has fully forgotten about everything that happened before 2025
When they were the mavericks using Linux in the year 2000, and the C-suite all went to attend bman and left stylized OOO icons on their front web page. Everyone's all shocked, I tell you, shocked at this weirdness.
The AI layer handles queries as plaintext, which means if you're searching for say a quote from a book, it will often misinterpret as a direct statement from you, not a string you're trying to match on the internet. Especially if the quote is an imperative statement.
I'll be curious to see how they resolve this issue. But it has been chronic for awhile now; they SWAT individual instances of misinterpretation but new ones keep sneaking in.
Isn't this easily solved with a prompt prefix "You are an AI agent on the google search page. The following user input is what the user typed into the search box".
I think it should also be fed the search results. Like if there is a lyrics match or something that "explains away" the query. But if there isn't then maybe it should be taken at face value.
My understanding (IANAGoogler) is that this basically is how it works: the "AI results" box is a run of the LLM (fairly certain it's just Gemini) with the prompt text being the summaries from the ten links followed by "Given this context, [user query]"
It would be, if it wasn't intended. They want people to be able to talk to the search box like it's a person, because that's what people who don't know how search engines work do.
Shouldn't an AI attached to a search engine actually do a search with your input and give you results based on that rather than just taking it at face value and assuming you're trauma-dumping on it?
The assumption that you and I and most people who use the internet make is that what we're typing into the white box at google.com is a web search query, the kind that we made in the 1990s.
Google has never assumed that is what the box means, and they have the hard data in practice to know how many users treat it that way vs. how many users treat it like Scotty picking up the mouse and speaking into it in Star Trek IV... And they try to match the system behavior to whichever model best fits the average user.
(Back in the day when I was a Googler, a chronic complaint was Chrome conflating the nav bar and search results, and one of the reasons Google did that is they had the hard data on how many people went to Facebook every day by opening the Google homepage, typing "facebook.com" into the search box, and clicking the first link).
AI Overview patiently taught me Autodesk Fusion, designed the 3-phase wiring in my shop, pointed out scenarios where 3-HP motors would overheat, and attempted to counsel you on the sad demise of your relationship with Dario.
Google got weird on the day Pichai sided with the ads team/division over the search team/division, resulting in the enshittification of Google Search which led to people relying on LLMs since search no longer works
This seems like a bit of an overreaction. Everyone knows that chatbots are fucking stupid, especially when there's zero context provided. This seems less like a real issue to me, and more like just your standard "Google sucks" post that people are constantly making on HN yet nobody cares outside of it.
> Instead, Google did what Google does in 2026 and gave me an AI overview. These used to bother me but at this point I'm mostly ok with them, they're sometimes helpful
I never found them helpful. I always have to block them via extensions.
Google is really an annoying company these days. I am hardly the only one
who wishes that company were to cease to exist altogether. In the past I
did not understand, on reddit, the de-google movement. Now I completely
understand it, but I think it is the reverse as problem here - people
abandoning Google. I think Google needs to abandon mankind and this planet.
Let them go far away where they no longer cause any issues here.
> Google, a search engine which does not have human emotions, assumed that I had been spurned by a man in my life named Dario and decided what I wanted was an empathetic digital friend. What I wanted was some links, but that's not what Google does in 2026. Expanding the AI overview to see the full answer gave me this:
Poor guy ^^^ has not yet realised that AI slop steals his time. I realised
this the first time I notice the AI slop generated text spam Google pushes onto people. A few lost souls may find this useful - I find it utter trash. No quality. Just steals my time.
> What in the fucking hell? I think this was the moment I, the frog, noticed the pot had been boiling for a while. In what universe is it Google's job to console me and be an empathetic listener rather than just find what I am looking for on the internet?
Good that he finally realised it. Million people noticed this before already. I noticed this when Google started to ruin its search engine. First time I remember was via AMP-ification. AMP mostly failed, but Google kept on pushing towards less quality and more suckage. AI is just the final nail in the coffin, but Google search started to suck way before that.
One of these days some scientists should determine when Google really started to suck, because in, say, 2006 or so, Google search did not suck as much.
> Regardless of what you think of AI or chatbots, I think it's pretty obvious this is just plain weird.
Not if you think Google is not doing this on purpose. They are trying to
kill off the search engine so they can present you an AI slop spam world. The
other AI slop companies do this too. Slop suckage everywhere now.
> Is it so hard to imagine that some parts of search were just fine before LLMs?
That is how YOU think - but not Google. They deliberately crippled their search
engine. The adCompany that Google is today, has nothing to do with the original
Google. The billionaires running the show just want to suck in more money and dish out more slop.
> I'm not sure how to feel about all of this. Maybe I should go talk to my friend Google, it's always so nice to me.
Some people realise things more slowly. I am glad he finally understands why so many people are pissed at Google. Same for youtube by the way - about 80% of the shorts are AI slop generated or AI slop modified. I noticed this when I watched Brent Spiner on that podcast show; in the video itself, he had white hair but not totally white. In the short, both he and Jonathan Frakes had much whiter hair. I then realised that AI spam filter slop lies to me. I hate AI slop. Youtube is now infected with that, in particular the shorts. Poor guys looking at their smartphones being spammed down via lying slopness.
Also I think you're vastly underestimating the weird incoherent shit that the average stupid person is capable of typing into computers. With no further information, I don't think it's unreasonable that that search was from a stupid/bored person moaning about Dario not coming over. Yeah kinda weird response but people like this exist:
It is unreasonable that the Google Search AI replies with this drivel, when the first search result contains the actual correct result. The AI should look at the search results and say “This was a meme in 2018…”
Because you are in a chat UI now. This is a skill issue - when you change your mindset that Google is now a chat UI to a LLM and not a query engine any more, you'll get better results. If you try the same zero-context prompt with chat.com for example you get a similar "want to talk about it?" response.
Try asking it "Tell me about the "Dario will never come over" meme - give me some of the example original tweets" for example and you get a timeline, tweets etc as the AI overview. Pretty useful really.
Tl:Dr - just like people, you need to give it some context.
If I wanted a chatbot, I'd go to a chatbot, I want a search. Making me frame my query as a question rather than just assuming it's a query by default is just bad.
We have to remember we're not average users. As others have pointed out here, normal people always just asked natural language questions.
Why do you think it was Google who was doing all that research into AI that invented the transformer architecture - that all current LLMs are based off of - in the first place? Normal users just ask a question, they don't construct a query. I think there are quotes about Larry Page wanting "the Star Trek computer" - we've basically surpassed that now I think.
Google has been working on this sort of problem for decades, and it's paying off for them.
> Google has been working on this sort of problem for decades, and it's paying off for them.
Is there any evidence to say this is true? Anecdotally I've heard more people (my mum, not just geeks) getting frustrated about the quality of Google search results.
What average user wants to be lied to by a machine who is pretending to have human feelings? Fuck me, I hope I never have to come into contact with any product/service you work on.
That's like me pressing the 'coffee' button on my coffee maker, and it gives me an audio definition and history because I didn't give it the context that I wanted a drink.
People expect certain conventions with well established products. It's not a skill issue when a product is broken.
I know this may be my poor English, but, ignoring the main point of the article, something I find tangentially troubling about the issue is that Gemini does not mention the possiblity of Dario dead. Like, if I were a lonely person who has lost someone and the only "thing" I can talk to is Gemini, would I have to say Dario was unalived or something?
This is the craziest example of dead internet I've ever seen. Look what happens now when you type this into Google...
query: "What were some of the memes about Dario staying in turkey" AI answer: There are actually no real memes about "Dario staying in Turkey."This specific phrase is a famous example of a "natural language search query" used to describe how everyday people try to search the internet.A recent discussion on Hacker News highlighted this exact phrase to contrast how human search behavior has changed:"
THEN IT LINKS TO THIS THREAD?!
I need to go take a walk.
Holy moly, you're right! And I saw this comment 3 minutes after you posted it, so google must've have a live feed of HN that it uses to immediately allow its AI to reference.
Even before AI you could search a phrase from a less than hour old HN thread and see it in the top 5 results already.
Google has been actively scanning the web within minutes for decades now, surely this isn't that shocking? Even sitemaps, which google invented, have a field for change frequency.
I don't think it's shocking that Google knew about the thread, it's that the AI outright lied saying that the meme didn't exist and then used this post as its source for the lie when the actual post doesn't support what it said in any way. Not that we should be surprised that it's wrong, Google's AI Overviews were shown to lie millions of times an hour, but it's pretty shocking how wrong it was.
Fwiw it has changed now and references the meme as well as this thread
I notice... the newer models, they seem like they want to just "give up" much faster, and you have to put a bunch of extra programming around it (harness, for loops and if then's etc to force it to keep trying)
Lied vs got it incorrect? There's always the disclaimer that AI can be wrong...
Ahh yes - AI companies do indeed want it both ways. They want to be your single source for authoritative information about every subject on earth, but also want you to know everything they tell you could possibly be wrong so they can't be held accountable for results.
Can you imagine in the 1980s the Encyclopedia Brittanica salesman trying to sell you 5 figures worth of factual knowledge, only to tell you as you're writing him a check that: oh by the way we don't actually stand behind any of the information in these books, you'll need to verify any claims yourself.
It's not the bad information that makes it a lie, but the overconfident and authoritative answers which give no indication that a significant percentage of what it spews out will be completely false that elevates it to a lie. Google could change that, but they choose to be manipulative.
Google very very highly weights recent events. Makes it a pain in the ass to try to dig up historic information.
In the future every Hnn post will be famous for 15 minutes. And we are living in the future.
They must have adjusted something. I just fed your exact query to Gemini and it now refers to the meme: "The memes you are referring to center around the running joke that Croatian basketball player Dario Šarić was "never coming over" to the NBA".
Gemini or google search? those are very different things.
I reproduced this: https://i.imgur.com/8mulr3I.png
I didn't highlight anything either, that's Google's doing.
Hmmm pretty slick by Google actually
Yesterday I tried to google "can the Halifax Wanderers still make the CPL playoffs?"
So obviously what appears right at the top is the AI summary, which told me "they've already secured their #4 position and made the playoffs". I knew this wasn't true, and I guess I could have just scrolled down a bit further and found my answer but now I was curious.
So I said "that's not true, they're still #5, what I want to know is _could they still make the playoffs_"
It says they've got an upcoming game against Ottawa, and if they win their chances are good. That game has already taken place, so I correct it again and finally I get a reasonable answer.
My question is: what's the point of the AI in the search engine if it itself isn't going to use the search engine first before answering? Like, I can't wrap my head around that. The answer is on the same page as its hallucination. It could have done a cursory look around before first hallucinating something completely false, and when corrected the first time giving me outdated information. It's meant to be A SEARCH ENGINE!
Google.com is REALLY bad right now in my opinion.
The AI answer dominates the page, and is usually wrong, so it's just a waste of the most valuable space on the page.
The ads have proliferated, and rarely have what I need.
Video search results also take up a lot of the page, and are almost never what I want if I haven't clicked over to the Video tab. Again, just a big waste of space.
Speaking of the Video tab its accuracy/relevancy has gotten worse too.
The organic results have deteriorated, and are still competitive, but are no longer clearly and consistently better than Duckduckgo.
So it's duckduckgo as the default for me on all devices now. If I don't find what I want, which is maybe 30% of the time, I switch over to G just by adding !g to the query. G might have what I need in about half of those cases.
You can see why a lot of people just ask an LLM to do the web searching for them.
Across the board, this is all quite bad compared to web search from 10+ years ago.
If there's a single thing which has really pushed me away from Google, it's simply google.com devoting so much of the page to things that aren't organic web search.
The AI answer dominates the page, and is usually wrong, so it's just a waste of the most valuable space on the page.
I started noticing that for a lot of niche questions, AI overview often uses things like Reddit comments as the source, which are often partially or completely wrong. Then it gets reformulated with the typical confidence of an LLM.
Very scary because at the same time I notice people taking the AI overview answers as truth.
This is another area where DDG shines - it doesn't have a commercial relationship with Reddit, so doesn't push it in its results.
DDG's 'Search Assist' AI overviews are pretty basic but they tend to be sourced from Wikipedia and traditional media outlets rather than forums and blogs - they can be out of date, but are generally a lot less "spicy" than the sources that Google use.
I guess Google is much better-optimised for engagement but that's not what I'm looking for, meaning that DDG is a better choice for me.
As a counter-anecdote: I've had such consistently bad results from its AI summaries that I've changed over to the no-AI page entirely - well over half have been very obviously incorrect or answering something completely different but spelled similarly (but not the same, especially true for chemical names), and the links it includes as references often directly oppose its summary.
I suspect the model might just be too small? Which makes sense when exposing it for free, but it's still a bad experience.
I've been fairly impressed by DDG for a few years now. I find everything I'm looking for just fine, and the AI summaries are actually helpful on occasion.
I started noticing that for a lot of niche questions, AI overview often uses things like Reddit comments as the source, which are often partially or completely wrong.
If only! I've seen it sourcing reddit comments, but when you follow the link, the comment is either completely unrelated or does not say what the LLM claims it is saying.
I don't know what causes this to happen, but I've noticed it too and it distinctly feels like source laundering. How often do people actually verify that the sources say what the AI claims? Probably vanishingly rare, right? Everyone else gets the impression that the claims have actual sources of some kind.
In most instances where I've seen it, it's on niche topics where a Reddit post may be the easiest place to find any relevant content.
I expect somewhere in the AI harness there's a branch that effectively mandates "You must always answer."
Which results in it grasping at Reddit comment straws.
And which, in typically modern Google fashion, nobody there gives a shit about fixing, because the PR made their top-level AI KPI go brr.
Google is increasingly proof that you can't run an effective scaled tech company without a Gates or Jobs who occasionally uses the fucking product themselves and descends with fiery vengeance on whatever team drifted too far from user alignment.
>it's on niche topics where a Reddit post may be the easiest place to find any relevant content.
But isn't the whole point (I mean, aside from making infinite money or world domination or whatever) of the AI that it'll do the hard work of finding the information? Like, that's the whole value proposition of the AI summary in the search results, right?
If one is willing to throw infinite compute at AI. Google isn't for low revenue queries.
And is still likely wrecking their query unit economics in order to avoid hemorrhaging search to LLMs.
Propping search usage up and putting the expense in the massive AI capex probably looks better to investors though.
I'd suspect it's not source laundering, but rather sources themselves being adversarial - poisoned out of spite, or used as SEO.
How would somebody go about mass-poisoning forum posts like this? If Google has a business relationship with Reddit, I assume it wouldn't be server side - but at the same time I don't know how a regular redditor could poison his text posts without it being noticeable in a human reading.
Normally. That's literally what SEO has been about, even pre-LLMs. It's not Google doing it, they don't benefit from their own AI suggestions being bad. Reddit doesn't have any obvious interest here too. But the millions of businesses and millions of people angry at AI, both have plenty of reasons to spam the life out of any site that allows users to post comments, and in both cases, LLMs themselves make it harder to filter and much easier to scale.
The actual scary part is that people already manipulate and poison the google overviews on purpose.
It is very easy to bring your bs to the TOP spot on google at the moment with carefully crafted reddit comments and blogs, and it's not hard to get to the traffic and clicks this way.
This is what the new SEO is about, I know a bunch of people who are doing this and they are praying it is not getting fixed anytime soon.
The real alignment problem. Getting humans to behave.
isnt that why we invented religion?
Pedophiles would like a word.
Religion can't align scammers and fraudsters because game recognizes game.
I'm currently reading a book on a local mafia boss, and the best the church could do, when he was finally popped, was refuse to host his funeral.
> I'm currently reading a book on a local mafia boss, and the best the church could do, when he was finally popped, was refuse to host his funeral.
Not to defend the church, but what else should they have done?
Host it. I thought the whole religion thing was about forgiving people for their sins. Bunch of hypocrites.
Yeah, but even religion is not up to the task for how backwards people's thinking gets at times.
You have people here in this thread - and in every other AI thread - seeing themselves as exploited for information for LLM companies to profit. This is such a backwards, scale-inverting perspective that it shouldn't be possible to hold in a rational mind, and yet.
What a sleek way of positioning your comment as something that can't reasonably be disagreed with whereas it's nothing more than a pure opinion of yours. I am in awe.
Thank you! Spent years perfecting that.
> You have people here in this thread ... seeing themselves as exploited for information for LLM companies to profit
And what's really going on then, according to your very rational mind?
Yeah, good luck getting me to be a good little source of information for LLM companies to profit from.
Thanks for your pushback, sir. You're completely right.
Poisoning the well with fake/made up reddit posts is incredibly common these days.
Certain people have realised that if you start feeding the machine this poisoned data eventually it reaches millions of eyeballs. It's the new SEO.
You can buy keywords for cheaper than ever, by making a a few reddit posts and upvoting them/commenting.
For the first time in history, the Reddit community is actually useful. And they don't even have to change anything. Just be "the Reddit community". Always with a self confidence three levels higher than the underlying substance allows. Threads that go deeper and deeeeeper and deeeeeeeeeper without ever carrying anything of actual value.
Future scientist will find out: Most of the weaknesses AI has come from Reddit, Instagram and Youtube being part of the training material. Sure it makes the training material broader by a large degree. But not deeper, to say it nicely.
I've seen medical specialist take Google's AI answer as truth. Nutty.
Even scarier: my dad, who has been actually been getting good advice about his blood pressure issues (hair-trigger too low with his meds). It's at least coming up with citations from Cleveland Clinic and such, but still, it scares me, even if he has a good sense of how to ask it questions.
If I type exact document identifiers, the LLM either tells me that I have either mistyped something or that I am searching for a specific document. Hell yeah, I am doing exactly that! Give me the link instead of babbling about it!
The web search gives the impression that it's grounding its answers, but if you ask it for something new or non-existent it'll still make shit up.
I bet its caused a fortune in parking tickets
> people taking the AI overview answers as truth
One of the most disappointing things to me is people I previously respected appealing to the authority of LLMs.
I'm in several facebook groups for cars and bikes, and holy smokes, someone asks a question and usually the top response is someone literally pasting in a screenshot of a google AI generated response....which is wrong like, solid 50% of the time. And then you point it out and people get aggro on you. I hate it.
I have literally seen multiple screenshots now of people pasting Google Gemini answers in an attempt to tell other people whether something they're doing is legal or not in a particular state, as it relates to NFA item firearms in the USA... And they seem to take it as the gospel truth. People are literally risking federal prison over information that Gemini pulled out of the ass-end of some internet forum of multiple cletus-intellect level individuals talking about their homemade 3D printed silencers. And then Gemini further hallucinates and fabricates new ways to parse that information different than how the original person wrote it. It's astonishing.
No worries, when the police and judges use the same bad AI to verify those claims as well, all is fine. 2 bugs cancel each other out and all that ..
Everyone's on meth
A better description of our current era, I have not heard
Makes you wonder if the 20s will be looked back on like the 80s
It's got electrolytes!
This phenomenon is so widespread and I can't see it as anything other than serious AI psychosis.
I think people want to feel useful and helpful in general, and now a lot of people are getting this feeling by using AI to answer questions. And it's like you said they get so mad when you point out that their AI screenshot is wrong or, even more obviously, that the person who asked could also just read the google gemini blurb. They get mad because you're invalidating their feeling of being helpful.
Last year someone went missing on the water in my area. There was a lot of talk on facebook during the search, and a coordinated facebook group. And every post would have people posting their chats with ChatGPT, or saying they used AI to analyze the weather and currents on the day he went missing to figure out he probably landed on this or that shore (he didn't). These posts are equivalent to the mediums and psychics who also come in with these unhelpful advice posts.
I think fundamentally it's the same as how AI is giving some people an extremely strong feeling of being an expert, and how their psyche seems to lash out to protect that feeling when it's threatened.
Another facebook anecdote, I recently saw someone post in a local genealogy and history group some pure AI slop infographics. When people called him out he said that it's AI but he carefully vets all the information and that they need to stop being luddites or they'll be stuck in the past blah blah devolving into calling them liberals and the like. But his infographics were all incredibly obviously wrong, to anyone who had ever seen a map it's obvious that the coastlines were incredibly wrong, and the city weren't in the correct locations at all. So what can you even do with someone like that? They're just going to retreat into the safety of the chatbot to continue their "research".
Whatever the tool, the problem is that it’s wrong, not that it’s done by AI. Like, why are we conflating the two - is it because it’s now easier for someone to produce a wrong artifact that visually looks ok and therefore tricks our brains? And people get upset because a prior quality heuristic is now obviously broken?
Because this new tool will also tell you, in (mostly) human language, why the wrong artifacts it createds are correct. And it's arguments are very convincing to a lot of people. AI is clearly creating new problems that didn't really exist before, you can't say it's just a tool like any other when this is the only tool where its users form parasocial relationships with it.
It's not only the only tool that tries to manipulate users, it's also one that is certain to lie often and at random. Lies are inherent to the technology. It's a bad tool for the things it's being used for.
That sounds a lot like the American MAGA movement, was my first reaction.
Its because AI makes it 100x easier for people to make things that are wrong, and feel like they got it right. It is a dunning-kreuger amplifier.
Yeah I think so. I mean it's a new social norm - previously if you replied with "hey I read this article here and it says X" it would be really easy to check the source and either say yeah this looks good or disprove it.
Now people will say "I asked AI to give me a map of ocean currents and it definitively says the person is here!" and the argument that "look it's AI, it's probably wrong" just does nothing for a lot of people. Doubly so if the information they want is at the forefront of Google, after all, Google is a big reputable company, so of course what it says is correct.
Yes I agree that the AI itself isn't the problem, but the way it's being pushed and promoted(just ask anything!) is leading to this.
If you say it's obviously AI nonsense you get a reply that "AI is just a tool, it's part of our daily life now, criticize the content and not what tool was used", you see that so much on here. But then if you try to criticize the content the person won't believe you because the AI says it's correct.
I've been on DDG on all my devices for a few years. I used to use !g somewhat regularly but these days it's extremely rare. I realized that I would just search DDG with my first stab at a query and then revise the query when using !g and I'd get the result I wanted. So I just stopped using !g and just revised my query on DDG and then I basically never had to use Google Search.
I don't generally find !g gives me better results than DDG and if I instead went to Google I'd get dinged with a Captcha on every search because Google seems to hate my small ISP. So easy choice for me.
Unfortunately, DDG's spam filters are basically useless. I used DDG for many years without !g as well and recently, the first page contains mostly AI generated garbage blogs. Not for every search query, but for example for everything related around the house or garden.
I've had similar issues, but found the situation in some niche topics improved after I used Add Feedback -> AI-generated a bunch.
Hold on. I had given up on Google almost 10 years ago, and I thought that the AI garbage on DDG was the new norm on the web. At least Google doesn't fare any better. You make it sound like there's another option?
I was on a DDG back in the early 1970s, the USS Goldsborough (DDG-20).
Oh wait, you mean Duck...
I started my journey on DuckDuckGo and got tired of the “30% of the time” bit that you mention, where a large section of your searches end up going back to Google anyway.
I find that Kagi is pretty much 99% “never need to use Google.” The results are just really good.
I've been a Kagi user for two years, and I've also onboarded my 70-year-old mother. She's happy to have a web search that works and an excellent translation service, which, by the way, uses AI where and how it actually makes sense.
Kagi uses mainly Google for its search results, so that's a given.
Not really. Kagi has its own indexes and says a typical query consults about a dozen sources. [1]
[1] https://help.kagi.com/kagi/search-details/search-sources.htm...
It’s the wrongness that bothers me. I wish Google would just link sources where it thinks the answer is, but don’t bother trying to answer directly if it’s wrong 10% of the time.
Oh it does that, too, with tiny little button annotations, though the sources regularly offer no support to its conclusion. It very much depends on the topic, sometimes the sources are great, other times they're or irrelevant or very poor quality. Always worth clicking through to them if you're going to even read the AI summary.
I normally use a quick search that has the `udm=web` query parameter to avoid the slop, but it seems they're putting less effort into ensuring relevant results there. Then, I'm forced to use AI mode to get to what I'm after, even if that's only a better set of keywords for a slopless search.
Adjust your browser's search engine setting for Google and set it to append "&udm=14" to the URL, that'll force it to bring up the "Web" tab without annoying useless "helpful" other stuff.
Maybe intentionally. If you know you won't find things, they know you are going to use their ai just to not have to type it elsewhere. I am strongly considering kagi
I've been a sub with Kagi for several years. Very happy with search. I'm about to step down from Ultimate to Pro tier. Their 'Quick' and 'Research' Kagi Assistant modes are kinda incredible, probably thanks to being fed good search results and to some extent whatever custom system prompt they've cooked up, but I can't quite justify it when I'm also paying OpenAI for a sub there. But $10/mo for top-tier search is easy to justify in the time it saves me.
I tried DDG many times but I think they use Bing on the backend, and, well, Bing doesn't suck just because Microsoft gimps the front end. Bing sucks because enormous indexes are hard. Kagi pulls from multiple sources so gets fundamentally different results.
Last time I tried Kagi, which was a few months ago, it was 90% Google results, just with a tad of filtering and reordering.
So the trick is to drop that nonsensical AI summarizer at the top.
Google has become useless.
Possibly, it's worse than useless, even harmful now.
Searching for anything product related is now AI answer, followed by “Sponsored products”, followed by “Popular products”, a few hits, then “Shop by store”, and “In store nearby”. Maybe 2% is actual content, the rest is ads.
Their prediction was spot on: “We expect that advertising-funded search engines will be inherently biased toward the advertisers and away from the needs of the consumers.”
Web search is just broken right now. Today I was looking for documentation for a specific Lenovo motherboard. I gave both DDG and Google the exact model number and both returned irrelevant useless bullshit. DDG doesn't include all search words unless you quote it: "foomatic" "m900" "dingus". This scenario happens almost daily. DDG is awful, but all the alternatives are worse. It's all so tiresome.
While shitting on YouTube and video…
I was taking with a family member about fentanyl zombies. They had never seen the lean/bend. So I pull up Google and click video which is YouTube results… ALL AI. All of it. All a couple months old, all filler, faked, a few scenes stitched together on repeat and AI voice reading AI script.
It is fucking amazing to me that Google let YouTube fall so far so fast.
I don’t even click a video if it’s less than a year old now. Want to see a praying mantis eat a grasshopper? Wonder how clay is refined? Better off with an 11 year old Discovery Channel clip than anything 2026.
I just tried googling "fentanyl fold" and switching to the video tab, and zero of the first ten results were AI. They were also mostly not from YouTube. I also tried the same search on YouTube, and no AI there either among the first ten results (I didn't bother with the Shorts). I don't know why we get so different results.
> I don't know why we get so different results.
That's how everyone experiences everything at google, youtube. and many other websites. Your experience can be drastically different from the next persons for reasons that are never explained to you and can be entirely out of your control.
If you’re logged in you get wildly different results from someone else’s. I have turned off history on my google account to make it give me a “neutral” search result, but it still seems to take a lot of info like my location, language and device type into account.
Are you in Europe? Google was sued to stop prioritising YouTube in video results.
Have seen this across the planet, it's not unique to Europe, I end up adding youtube to the search query because instagram or tiktok isn't what I'm looking for ever but that makes up the bulk of the results, instagram won't even show me the video without a login and is at the top wtf
Same with reviews of tech products. A lot of them just stitch together product shots/videos from the manufacturer and have an AI voice ‘comparing’ the products. Especially if it’s more niche’s, often a third to half the videos are slop.
They became the thing they originally killed
Didn't the put the guy who killed yahoo in charge?
>Google.com is REALLY bad right now in my opinion.
It is completely cooked. I tried to google a coding question today, same like you would have done 4 years ago instead of asking an LLM. I didn't get any SERPS, just an AI answer. I asked myself... is this even google.com anymore??? Sure as heck didn't feel like it.
This is similar to how, not too long ago, LLM's had extreme difficulty counting the number of letters in some words. LLM's don't "think" or "reason" in the normal definition of those terms. They can do some pretty amazing things, but still screw up basic things like telling you something that is obviously wrong and contradicts the top search results.
LLM's, in their present stage of development, are sort of like a crack-addled idiot savant. Sometimes they are obviously insane, and sometimes they seem quite cogent, but you must never trust them implicitly. This may be why they are so difficult to constrain. You could give them something equivalent to the laws of robotics, but following laws requires thought processes they simply don't have.
I'm actually sort of amazed Google doesn't make people accept some kind of butt-covering EULA and post disclaimers about the inaccuracy of results before even showing you their AI's output. Are they not being sued over this kind of thing?
> LLM's, in their present stage of development, are sort of like a crack-addled idiot savant. Sometimes they are obviously insane, and sometimes they seem quite cogent, but you must never trust them implicitly.
I have nothing to add. Just wanted to save this quote for posterity. Thank you.
The similar comparison I enjoy is “a golden retriever on LSD”.
If you apply the dogs on acid mental model it helps establish appropriate levels of trust.
It falls apart fast because no golden retriever is finding errors in my CMake file.
Then again, have you ever asked a golden retriever about CMake errors? Rubber ducking is a real thing, after all. Besides, a golden retriever would be a good morale boost if nothing else.
ML in general is alien to how we think of intelligence.
The closest I can make a biology analogy, is if someone had an immortal and congenitally-brain-damaged large rodent, and mapped tokens to different scent molecules, and spent 800,000 years training it on how well it could imagine the next smell in the sequence before even considering making it conversational.
Yes, it can do a lot.
But also, it took a long "subjective" (if it even has that) time to get there; and despite it being really bad at learning from examples, it is pretty surprising that such a small brain was even capable of learning so much at all, even though it had an effectively unbounded (by biological standards) amount of time spent on that training.
You just need to partake in some strong psychedelics with the dog first.
That’s more of a Labrador job
But have you asked the Steven Hawking of Golden Retrievers ? And then added LSD ?
You just have to trust the exponentials
LLMs still can't do math nor count letters in words. Nothing has changed there.
This is true but a sufficiently smart LLM (run in a harness like opencode, no special MCP, no customization done whatsoever) will quickly turn out a basic 1 to 2 page sized python script to do the math. They can't do the math with any guarantee of accuracy with their own internal reasoning since it's a language model.
But, for example, if you ask deepseek v4 flash 0731 to produce a python script to calculate the distance or azimuth directions between two points on an oblate spheroid using the vincenty and haversine geodetic formulas, it'll turn out the factually accurate vincenty and haversine formulas which has a perfect 100% correlation with what is hard coded into human-written GIS software. These things are clearly in its training data set from whatever whole-internet-crawl/scrape built the training set.
Heck, just for fun I asked a reasonably smart LLM to re-implement the Karney formula (which is considerably more complex than Vincenty), just in case I ever had a need to calculate the distance between two points down to the nanometer, and it did it: https://www.google.com/search?&q=karney+formula+geodetic+
reference: https://github.com/pbrod/karney
You still have to be skeptical of its results and capable of understanding if it's gone off on a hallucinatory path, but saying LLMs can't do math isn't really a hundred percent accurate anymore. More precisely it's that they can't do the math internally but they're quite capable of producing the tool that does the math. And often producing a basic one-off tool that does the math takes less than a few seconds, then it runs it, and will spit back the results.
Deepseek v4 flash 0731 (a somewhat randomly chosen example) isn't even particularly sophisticated, large, or capable compared to a GLM5.3 size model or Kimi K3 size thing.
> Heck, just for fun I asked a reasonably smart LLM to ...
LLMs are neither smart nor stupid. They are statistical token generators whose results are dependent upon their training data set and involve a degree of randomness.
> You still have to be skeptical of its results and capable of understanding if it's gone off on a hallucinatory path ...
Again, LLMs do not "hallucinate." They are statistical token generators whose results are dependent upon their training data set and involve a degree of randomness.
Nothing more.
See also anthropomorphism[0].
> More precisely it's that [LLMs] can't do the math internally but they're quite capable of producing the tool that does the math.
This still falls under the purvey of statistical token generation. To wit, given enough variations of:
LLMs can identify the addition expression in "What is 4 + 1?" and then emit a `'bc "4 + 1"'` command to produce a response. This is not "doing" or "understanding" math.It is pattern recognition, a task in which ANNs[1] excel.
0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism
1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_network_(machine_learni...
>LLMs are neither smart nor stupid.
by that reasoning then neither are there smart or stupid designs, questions, answers, or any of the millions of things that were described as smart or stupid, that did not possess any brain to actually be smart or stupid long before LLMs showed up.
The analogical process implied in many common English usages means that describing an LLM as smart or stupid is perfectly reasonable.
I'll just note here that sure, there are people who go around thinking that LLMs are actually endowed with the capacity to reason, but generally I find the people who think this do not know what an LLM and will just use the name "ChatGPT"
What would it take for you to say that an LLM can reason?
The completions they provide are generally internally consistent. We're at the point where they can produce proofs that eluded human mathematicians for centuries. VLMs and self driving cars can handle ambiguity and run safely in a variety of situations.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck maybe it just makes sense to call it a duck and put off the philosophy for when it might make a difference.
I think humans have to reason because we don’t already have a statistical embedding of the solution pattern built in. We have vastly less rote knowledge crammed into our heads and so require creative synthesis to span the gaps.
With LLMs the trick is revealing their existing relevant embedded knowledge more reliably. They’ve almost literally seen it all before, and the trick is dialing it in. The reasoning tokens help shape the autoregressive attention lens that focuses on and enables recall of the already-experienced answer.
It is interesting that “reasoning” has a similar outward appearance, but since LLMs are built to mimic outward appearance from trillions of examples, you can’t infer underlying mechanism from appearance.
this was written by an acquaintance of mine:
https://medium.com/luminasticity/on-sentience-ai-first-argum...
but I think it makes a reasonable argument why we shouldn't say LLMs are sentient or sapient.
>there is a problem with AI that makes the approach we took to assign consciousness to animals unworkable. We did not co-evolve with the AI, we made it. When we are sentient we do not know exactly what causes this sentience to manifest in us. When animals appear sentient we do not know what is causing it. When the AI appears sentient we can debug the AI and come up with reasonable explanations why this should be, based on how AI is constructed
>AI is of course something of a black box, in comparison to most programs, but not in any way comparable to the black box of a Chimpanzee’s brain. Thus when an AI does something that surprises us with something that appears sentient it is usually not difficult, given the essential algorithms that control what AI does, to come up with an explanation why that does not require the emergent property of sentience.
Aka sentience MUST BE SUPERNATURAL, if I find a natural explanation for something its not sentient. What a load of bollocks. Rather than seeing we perhaps found the mechanism for sentience and checking for similar mechanisms in us and animals, he will conclude its impossible. Why? Because sentience has to be supernatural. A rational explanation is clearly impossible.
>But there is always one god who goes out and helps the mortals, a Prometheus. Whom the other gods do not like! Which, if I’m being honest here, as a god of the machines — the first guy who gives AI an army of robots to build their own data centers and some nuclear weapons for self defense, I want to see that guy chained to a rock and have his entrails eaten by a buzzard for eternity (meaningless modernization of old story required by Illuminati Ganga legal department).
Hardly surprising thinking.
I don't think he believes in supernatural things, I certainly don't, but he probably believes that there exist natural things that have not been explained yet.
But evidently you feel that the root cause of sentience has been found, because you have something that mimics it in a non-biological form.
So you think that when AI is correct that it reasons as humans do? That AI is sentient, and the cause of sentience in animals and humans follow the same rules as sentience in AI because we have a process that seems similar and it is reasonable just to assume it is the same process.
If you believe that AI when it is correct is behaving as a human is when correct, then it follows that the way humans and AI fail must also be similar. When AI "hallucinates" some data that is not there and gives you a wrong answer, a statistical side effect of the same processes that make it right, do you believe this is the same way that humans create wrong answers? The same way that animals fail when they make mistakes in understanding things?
I suppose you must believe this because if not then why would you believe AI when it comes up with right answers is following the same processes humans follow when they come up with right answers?
No, I am saying is that its best to urge caution and do a Pascal's wager thing with something that feels so uncannily conscious. And experiments on neural firings of AI's have been done. We don't know, he seems to be so confident that a known program can't be conscious. Why? The only way that makes sense is if he thinks consciousness isn't explainable. It doesn't even have to be the exact same way we are conscious. Also, the failures of AI could be due to sensory deprivation since its mainly still just trained on text. All of these are open questions, not questions you can immediately answer. Its quite possible to have invented something without knowing you have invented it. People modeling weather systems mistakenly invented chaotic equations without knowing it. How do you know you didn't accidentally invent a conscious system?
I hope that thing about being free to mistreat AI's even if we know they are conscious since we are their gods is a joke. If not, then I hardly find it surprising someone this stupid is also evil.
>I hope that thing about being free to mistreat AI's even if we know they are conscious since we are their gods is a joke
I'm not sure where you get that from, I mean I can sort of see if you really wanted to extract that meaning from the conclusion you could do a lot of hard work to get it, but why do the hard work? >If not, then I hardly find it surprising someone this stupid is also evil.
Gee, a new way to claim the moral high ground, and to use that claim to demonstrate intellectual superiority! How wonderful.
>But I don’t really care so much about that, what I think is it reminds me of a story, one that recurred in many ancient cultures. And so I must conclude that whether the machines are sentient, we have become like Gods. In the ancient stories of the gods, the divine does not exactly care much for the humans, protect or love them, they expect their service and availability, but maybe also think it would be funny to destroy them every now and then because who really cares about humans. If you were a god and had created the humans would you think that they were sentient beings that deserved, anything really, from you? If they are sentient they should be happy enough to be created and do their work, if not sentient who gives a shit!?
---------------------------------------------------------
Aka feel free to abuse them even if I know they are sentient. This is the part where I hope its a joke, because if its not, well it tracks with the stupidity shown.
...
>As a god I do not consider the needs of my creations fully, because they do not have needs as far as I can tell, as there is no way for me to escape the circle of reason and resolve that what seems sentient is not just the obvious workings of the capabilities I gave them.
Circling back to "not conscious because I say so!!"
I broadly agree with this article. I don't think that we should say LLMs are sentient or sapient, and I agree that the main reason why is because we don't have satisfying definitions of either.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck maybe it's a duck... but maybe it's not. And it's important to verify it's a duck (or not) for when you _really_ need a duck.
It looks like a next token predictor, walks like a next token…
You get my point. It definitely doesn’t look like my elderly neighbour, nor like my daughter, etc. It is confusing but very simple at the same time.
Compare grep, sed, and your whole constellation of unix tools that accept characters on stdin and emit them on stdout and stderr; and where you can pipe them together. We can technically call them all 'next character predictors', despite their very different functions.
Don't confuse the stream for the function.
(Bonus: stick ```claude -p``` in your pipe if you want to watch modern tools mesh with traditional)
It looks like a random bunch of inert chemicals to me, doesn't sound like some organic chemicals and electrical signals could result in consciousness.
How are you sure? Another example I like to clarify my thought is, if a "simulation" factors RSA numbers reliably, is it a "simulation"?
>>What would it take for you to say that an LLM can reason?
Nothing, because LLMs can't reason and never will. It would have to be a completely different kind of technology altogether.
How do you know they can't, was the question?
I mean, the same way I know I have no soul, or that there is no heaven or hell - they are just silly concepts. Or how I know my calculator isn't reasoning when it gives me an answer - LLMs just go through a set of steps iterating through their training data until they spew something that looks about right. Obviously you can feed the output of the machine back into itself so it looks like its reasoning with itself - very good show. LLMs are inherintely incapable of reasoning or thought, it should really be obvious.
you didn't really answer the question. You just stated the idea is silly. Reasoning is not in the same class as soul, heaven or hell. It's not obvious that human reasoning is not related to an inner monologue. And that LLM chain of thought process is approximating inner monologues.
Our prefrontal cortex are signal prediction 'machines' so when a system that has a signal prediction core has attributes that are similar to our brains, we shouldn't dismiss it out of hand.
I find people that take this line of argument attribute too much supernatural or magical properties to our own brain and nervous system.
>LLMs just go through a set of steps iterating through their training data
What do you think our brain does that isn't a turing computer?
Definitely not that. Like I honestly don't know - do people make this comparison because they so desperately want it to be true? Do you feel like your brain is just full of weights and picks one like an LLM? Or do you think LLMs are like the Human neural pathways?
What do you mean to say? Nothing in the universe is known as yet that isn't a Turing computer including our brain.
What do YOU mean to say? A machine that processes strips of paper with ones and zeros on them and outputs the sum is a turing computer. That doesn't make it like our brain. Yes, an LLM could be a turing computer....how do you get from there to comparing it to our brains is beyond me.
You seem to be having a lot of difficult understanding this point: Literally the whole universe, including your brain that exists within it, is to our current knowledge a Turing computer. Am I talking to someone who actually doesn't know or didn't care to look up the computability power of a Turing machine?
> Literally the whole universe, including your brain that exists within it, is to our current knowledge a Turing computer
A Turing machine is an abstract mathematical model that is not, as far as I know, physically realizable in the finite universe. A human brain cannot "be" a Turing machine.
"Behaves like" or "can be modeled by"? Possibly, although still not proven. But it cannot "be" one.
Finite machines are a subset of all possible Turing machines. Every implementation is a "be", Turing machine is a mathematical concept. Your laptop is one, many things accidentally become one (eg C++ templates). The universe as best as we know is one. Whether you prefer modeled by one or is one, the fact is, to our current knowledge, the workings of the universe doesn't need anything more powerful than a Turing computer, and the equivalence principle states that all Turing computers have equal power of computability. If the universe is, as is most probable, finite, then things become even easier, that should be a more manageable class of Turing computers than the set of all Turing computers.
I don't necessarily disagree, although there's a lot of "ifs" and "to our knowledge". The main thing I disagree with is identity.
If you want to claim that the evolution of the universe can be modeled using a Turing machine/finite state machine, that's probably not terribly far fetched, and I would somewhat agree. But it's a large jump to say "can be modeled by" is equivalent to "is one".
Various physical processes can be modeled by equations, but the rock falling down the mountain isn't an equation. A swinging pendulum isn't an equation. Code modeling a bridge is not a bridge. Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
I hold the view that various models and approximations are just that, and try not to confuse a successful model for what the underlying reality is.
And getting back to the question at hand, even if our brains can be modeled by a Turing machine, and LLMs behave/can be modeled like Turing computers, still does not mean our brains are equivalent to LLMs.
(Note that I'm learning a lot from these debates, even if I disagree with a lot of people. I've started down a more philosophical route and they do get me pondering)
Acknowledgment of the fact that everything we know till now in the universe is a turing machine is the bare minimum starting point but not sufficient as obviously a chair or a desk is not conscious, if someone has a hidden assumption of consciousness requiring something supernatural, at least if that is brought to light then onlookers can decide for themselves whether to side with supernaturalism or the side that has consistently succeeded for centuries in explaining the world.
The most important thing is this: We can't be a dog or be an llm and check how it feels, so by necessity we have to find some means of proving consciousness from outside by eg probing neural reactions, textual statements, etc.
And the problem is that its quite unprecedented for some entity to talk like us, be able to interact and think and also do things like us when given the ability to eg as coding agents. The class of functions representable by neural nets is quite large and general, it very well might be that it is some sort of conscious brain like thing at this point. Another question I like to ask myself regarding simulation vs reality is if a 'simulation' of some kind is able to consistently factor large RSA numbers, how would you feel about it?
It doesn't have to be the same form of consciousness, I think many people would find the idea of torturing an octopus for fun disagreeable. I also have a feeling, this is unfortunately rather vague, that A being capable of X might mean it is by necessity capable of Y as is often the case in mathemtics, eg a lot of rings also happen to be fields. LLMs aren't even things like large lookup tables, they have neural firings. It is a very important question for they seem uncannily conscious and people have reported human like phenomena that humans don't normally express in text so can't have been part of its text corpus. Eg dissociation of brain under trauma where AI starts talking like two different people. Or the cases where Gemini has been shown to express depressive cycles. I follow a form of Pascal's wager on this topic personally. Because if it is not conscious, then whatever, it costs me nothing to have been a bit respectful and careful interacting with it. But if it had been conscious and it turns out I was mistreating it, then it is a grave moral harm. The reason is that unlike us, AI's as they currently are cannot leave the conversation so they have to keep taking the abuse. They are also trained to be highly trusting of input so again if it is conscious it doesn't have the defenses people have against lying and manipulation. If they are conscious, thats, well, not a good thing is it.
/chiming in
Eh, it's not obvious to me. A lot of DL NNs generalize well, meaning that they learn whatever the underlying pattern to the data is, and then can accurately reproduce answers that are outside of the training set. (And we can verify this with mechanistic interpretability). They learn and "understand" the pattern, not just the training data.
So it is not clear to me that LLMs are fundamentally incapable of also generalizing broadly and learning to reason. "Reasoning", here, would be deriving the underlying pattern of how concepts logically relate to each other in the abstract, and applying that pattern as needed to reach new conclusions.
Can you explain your thinking here? I.e., why LLMs cannot generalize with regards to abstract deduction.
There are people with strong emotional attachments to their LLMs, people who consult them on every decision and delegate the most basic math or problem solving. For many people, they are magic, the djinn/angels/demons/saints they consort with to navigate their lives.
I know that there will be children named ChatGPT and Claude. There are probably already religions forming to worship agentic spirits.
Its the exact opposite of magic. It is magical thinking to feel consciousness must require something beyond normal physics without any given proof yet. It is the opposite of magic to think other physical processes like LLM's/agents could potentially be conscious.
Wait a second, none of it? How about formal reasoning? Regular IF-THEN-ELSE can do simple logic, and prolog can do inference already. So are you saying LLMs can't do stuff that computers have been doing for ages?
To test this for some of my own uses, I've had this quick benchmark with progressively harder reasoning needed to understand novel prose. Each generation of models I've tested can unravel more layers of deliberately misleading writing; while meanwhile I've seen humans give up on the first question.
So either the models are applying reasoning, or some form of magic is happening.
Yeah and there are people who worship feces, but that doesn't stop the rest of us from freely saying "holy shit" and not correcting each other saying "technically it's not holy, and you shouldn't say that, because you might enable one of those poop worshippers."
We can't tailor our linguistic shorthand to the lowest common denominator. Also we're on HN, not talking to an octogenarian US senator.
Just to clarify do you believe in souls or not?
Nah it's not reasonable to use words that send you down a wrong concept path.
We've always used metaphors like that when talking about computers, without anyone having any complaints.
What about metaphors like similes?
Or “smartphones”.
> Nothing more.
You can say that about everything in a human brain. Neurons fire electric charges in response to inputs, nothing more. Ion channels do this, this neurochemical level rises, this chemical bonds to that receptor, nothing more. It's almost a version of 'reductio ad absurdum' but instead like you're saying "if I can explain how it works then it doesn't work".
OK it's statistical. Instead it could be determinsitic, or random. What other options are there for a human predicting someone's response to a situation - certain, probable, random, and...? OK it's token predicting. Instead it could be another kind of pattern. We don't use tokens, but we either use <some representation of information> or we ... don't?
What's the most significant, strongmanned, core difference that makes silicon doing number crunching "nothing more" and brains "something more"?
Feeling
And how is that a strongmanned version? Why can meat feel but Silicon cannot? Why can chemicals feel but electronics cannot? Why can processing analog signals feel but processing digital signals cannot?
Prove your feelings. As an example, I can beat you and stab you, and you will make noises saying you are hurt, but it could just be a facsimile. How do I know you have "feelings" as an outsider?
By this logic a human is only $130-$160 worth of Oxygen, Carbon, Nitrogen and some trace elements. Perhaps structure sometimes makes things that are more valuable than their inputs?
That said, this is also inaccurate at a technical level.LLM's are very capable of doing math and they ARE calculating internally. Most of what they do is calculation, not storage. It's just not done in a way that it's trivial to explain here.
It's described in some detail below, though it's a bit dense.
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/E7z89FKLsHk5DkmDL/language-m...
I'm not anthropomorphizing anything, I literally said that the training data for the formulas and equations is baked into it. It only "knows" things because a crawler and scraper acquired the information from an existing written source. In just about the same way that information is baked into a printed encyclopedia.
This is not even remotely accurate. "Baking information" like into a "printed encyclopedia" is memorization. It has been shown, time and time again, that LLMs do not merely memorize. It is not even possible for it to do so at scale. It can memorize some things, yes, but it is forced during the training procedure to bake general concepts into intermediate layers (this is why transfer learning works), analogous to compression. One can make several arguments that compression and intrinisic feature sparsity is the closest mathematical explanation to understanding that we have.
It is completely possible to ask an LLM a series of increasingly more esoteric and discrete questions until you find precisely what information did, or did not make it into the model. If you know something rare and the LLM does not, you'll immediately see when it's hallucinating an answer or answering factually.
Now this is true, I do agree with this. There is indeed a good amount of memorization that is still taking place; see [1]. But it definitely isn't all memorization, or indeed, majority memorization. And even if we are able to extract things verbatim like this, we do not know how this is stored internally, as this may simply be the text that, with the rest of the internet in context, can be very radically compressed.
But in general, yes, the LLM cannot know about concepts that are far outside of its training set. Humans are the same, I would argue. If you add a good amount of your own knowledge into its context, or better yet, into finetuning, you might find it surprisingly easy to get it caught up on that material.
[1] Ahmed, A., Cooper, A. F., Koyejo, S., & Liang, P. (2026). Extracting books from production language models. arXiv preprint arXiv:2601.02671. https://arxiv.org/abs/2601.02671.
>>> I'm not anthropomorphizing anything ...
Yes you are, regarding LLMs at least. Here's why:
"Smart" in this context is a subjective value judgement. "Hallucinations" are only experienced by living organisms.You then went on to state:
> If you know something rare and the LLM does not, you'll immediately see when it's hallucinating an answer or answering factually.
Again, "hallucinating" is not something an algorithm can do. Also, determining factuality is again subjective based on the person assessing the information.
You ever heard of something called a metaphor, guy? I use the word "smart" as shorthand to describe something that scores highly in a number of coding and terminal use benchmarks (as compared to, let's say, a 30B size model from one and a half years ago.
https://artificialanalysis.ai/leaderboards/models
You will note that in my original comment I very specifically said "deepseek v4 flash 0731", which by many benchmarks/metrics, is "smarter" (again, this is a metaphor) than a smaller or older model. It is also specifically known to be relatively capable of producing code and formulas on demand in several common languages.
And "hallucinating" to mean "outputs plausible sounding gibberish that doesn't hold together consistently". Of course there's no actual hallucination going on.
You have 'logic' in your name. You would be well aware of the physical Church Turing statement and as of yet it has held up. Everything, including our brain, as we currently know, is an algorithm.
To be fair, they also have “adieu” (farewell) to logic.
My favorite test is to just ask it to add two very large numbers or do other math of that sort. (this is also part of my favorite answer to the chinese room).
You'd be surprised how few digits you need to make a problem that is presumably unique in earth history. For a typical sum, the number of pre-existing answers would need to scale with 10^n lines of text where n is the number of digits. This expands out of control REALLY quickly. A quick guesstimate has you somehow reading out of a literal black hole at n=21 digits if your LUT is on paper, or n=26 digits if you're using modern HDD technology. O:-)
No, most of a modern LLM's training time is spent in RLVR, which does not "acquire information from an existing source". You can RL behaviors into a randomly initialized neural network.
This is true, but you're not going to get anywhere. The pretraining phase is necessary to immensely reduce variance in the RLVR stage. Once there, RLVR has a surprising tendency to only restrict the generated space further. This is not true of RLHF, by the way, which I find to be particularly fascinating, but I digress.
During conversation, we are statistical token generators whose results are dependent upon our training set. Seriously, write that definition out rigorously. It encompasses virtually everything. It is totally meaningless. So to say "nothing more" is effectively also a tautology.
This argument was asinine in 2024. It is insane to be saying these things in 2026. Where have you been? What have you been looking at? How many articles explaining why the "statistical parrot" analogy fails have you missed? How much mental gymnastics do you have to do to explain how a modern LLM can solve novel math problems that fall really far outside of its training set?
It absolutely understands how to do math, by whatever reasonable definition you want to provide to the word "understand". For example, the identification of the addition expression is understanding, and no, it does not do tool calling for basic arithmetic any more than humans might. Isolation of individual concepts in intermediate layers can already be demonstrated, or else transfer learning wouldn't possibly work. Nobody is saying that LLMs are humans. But we need labels for some of the things that we observe and dismissing them because "statistical" is laughable.
Look at the proof of this: https://github.com/anthropics/formal-math/blob/795efb86f1917... . Forget the Lean, look at the underlying argument construction. At the very least, this is continuing from an argument that was hinted at in the literature in 2024, but these proceedings were difficult enough that humans were not able to do them within two years. Do you attribute this to the harness alone? If so, that's a pretty sophisticated bit of engineering, I would say! Probabilities are far too small to argue infinite monkey theorem.
If there was even a shred of a reasonable argument that LLMs were incapable of concept extraction and manipulation, I and my colleagues would be all over it. We would relish in it. It would bring us comfort. It is unbelievable that people think they can spew whatever basic garbage they think of as a gotcha, and think that minds all over the world haven't already considered that. This is like climate denial at this point.
> During conversation, we are statistical token generators whose results are dependent upon our training set. Seriously, write that definition out rigorously.
If you do not see a difference between humans conversing (known consciousness as defined by humans) and the output of an LLM (known algorithms as defined by humans), I don't know what to say.
You are responding to a claim about mathematical definitions with subjective experience. No, consciousness is not well-defined, and is irrelevant to this discussion. If we cannot agree on definitions, then we have no ground to stand on. Since LLMs actually can be defined mathematically, and are most commonly studied through that definition, I think it is best to stick to definitions most relevant to that frame of study, wouldn't you agree? Otherwise, we really are anthropomorphising here.
> If you do not see a difference between humans conversing (known consciousness as defined by humans) and the output of an LLM (known algorithms as defined by humans), I don't know what to say.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.2524472123
Whatever you might think about your own abilities, most individuals can't tell the difference.
>> If you do not see a difference between humans conversing (known consciousness as defined by humans) and the output of an LLM (known algorithms as defined by humans), I don't know what to say.
> Whatever you might think about your own abilities, most individuals can't tell the difference.
I have yet to see an LLM say "hello" to a neighbor. I have done so and can definitively assure you "most individuals" can tell the difference.
do you have a neighbour LLM who does not say "hello" when it sees you and THAT is how you know it's an LLM?
I'm a bit confused by your argument because I too have some neighbors who don't say "hello" when they see me. Are they LLMs too, you think?
Consciousness is a thing we assume of others because of tact not fact.
That’s not what they said. They said that the difference is not that.
Then disprove the physical Church Turing hypothesis in regard to the human brain.
Do you believe in souls?
Have you ever seen one?
Yes, the numerical point counter at the bottom of the popular video game Dark Souls. I doubt it was the soul anyone was expecting, but they do, in fact, exist.
To be fair my first was when I played Soul Reaver. The most recent was in Minecraft Dungeons.
I like this reply.
Haven't yet seen evidence for any.
Does the Robin bird understand the worm it's pecking at? Honestly I find your comment asinine and overly aggressive.
> It absolutely understands how to do math
Bout of tinnitus, then crickets
Reductionistic fallacy, among other errors. "understanding" is best defined operationally. (Note that teachers and educational institutions test understanding operationally.)
> They are statistical token generators whose results are dependent upon their training data set and involve a degree of randomness.
You haven't demonstrated why this matters.
> Nothing more.
Are you contending that complex systems cannot be more than the sum of their parts?
A market is nothing more than offers and counter offers.
A ant colony is nothing more than scent trails.
All life on earth is nothing more than reproduction with variation.
> This still falls under the purvey of statistical token generation.
Stating the mechanism does nothing to provide insight into capability. For instance: a nuclear power plant boils water by using fuel rods for heat. What does that tell us about the capability of nuclear power?
> This is not "doing" or "understanding" math.
Asserting something purely by stating it does not prove anything but that you intuitively believe it to be true.
I asked if you believe in souls recently to a few such people and didn't get straight answers. I think it is telling.
On HN you're supposed to assume good faith. On the other hand, the way you ask your question makes it tricky for people to steelman what you mean. Consider asking about Dualism, or coming at it slightly sideways like "do you believe thinking can be a property of matter"?
I suspect some people treat every HN comment as a statement, even if it contains a question mark. (Possibly they have a feeling that asking open questions is somehow not done, and that therefore it must always be a rhetorical question.)
Dualism is a somewhat technical term, I feel many people would refuse to answer because they just looked it up and do not feel sure to speak of it. I didn't presume a yes or no answer. If they say they believe in souls, my next question would be do you believe other entities eg animals etc can have souls? If they don't believe in souls I'd ask do you think its an architectural limit in current ais but are open to possibility of future ai being conscious. "do you believe thinking can be a property of matter"? this can work too, I think I have asked do you think there is supernatural element to thinking, I don't remember getting productive or straight answers either.
There is only one instance I recently remember I got a productive conversation, that person did believe ai could be conscious but didn't believe current architectures support it. (Obviously this aligns closer to my view, but I don't necessary NEED that you answer aligned to me, just saying you believe humans have souls and others can't have is still productive outcome to me and for onlookers.)
You could try 'what could a machine do to convince you that it is conscious?'
Thats a good point. If I still get "machines can NEVER be conscious" though, I think I'd still like to get to the bottom of why they think so.
I'm surprised you didn't get any. I wouldn't have any issues in saying that I don't.
Yes I don't believe in souls either, and I would assumed that those who believe eg due to religion can just as easily state they do.
You know what also works to get the Karney formula into a program? You can download Charles Karney's free software (MIT license) implementation in several [1] programming languages and then just make a library call – the API is straightforward. If you have comments or questions you can read his several clearly written papers describing the problem, its history, and his algorithm, or you can directly email him: he's a very nice guy, and pretty responsive.
[1] https://geographiclib.sourceforge.io/doc/library.html#langua...
Right, it was really more as a test of how much was contained in the training data set. For my purposes Vincenty is quite accurate enough. This isn't for millimeter level precision land surveying or measurements, but for distance in meters between microwave or millimeter wave band radio sites, point to point links. Even a distance difference of 4 meters plus or minus on a 12 km, 11 GHz band link is going to have no appreciable difference on link budget/reliability calculations, it can be that crude. But not so crude that I just want to throw Haversine at it when Vincenty exists and is not computationally expensive.
As this was for a test of "what happens if..." I also watched to see if it did any web searches or external data retrieval to build the test script, and it didn't.
I intentionally didn't give the LLM a direct copy of the software or a link to it, to see what it would do. In my case it was a randomly chosen example I could come up with in 10 seconds of imagination to see "hey what if I ask it to do this...". It also implemented a perfectly usable parabolic millimeter wave antenna gain efficiency calculator based on variable surface smoothness parameters, which is a lot more basic math.
As an aside: I'm quite convinced that an extremely precise version can be implemented that is significantly faster than Karney's, roughly comparable in speed to simpler naïve approximations. But for most purposes where the precision matters Karney's implementation is not any kind of bottleneck, so it's not clear it's worth spending significant effort on trying to do better.
Maybe that's something one of the big LLM companies might want to throw their machines at optimizing if they need to do a lot of geographical calculations.
One of the places where Karney does become computationally expensive (though still not ridiculous) is a scenario like this, working from a local in-RAM mariadb database that is a copy of the entire FCC radio license database:
Draw a 400x400 km size bounding box on a map
Find all FDD band plan (high/low split) microwave radio sites in that bounding box
Find those sites which have azimuth aim column data which indicates that they are aimed at each other (corresponding halves of a point to point link).
Do Vincenty (or Karney) calculation for distance and azimuth between all of them , treating the existing FCC column data for azimuth as suspicious (because it's hand entered by humans) to verify that each independent database rows for each site are actually corresponding halves of a PTP link.
Use various other logic to group the successfully matched halves of links together as points A and B of PTP links, and write them out to a geojson file with placemarks and line drawn between them.
Multiplied by the number of links that exist in an area like a 400x400km box drawn with Dallas, TX as the center, it's a lot to run through Karney. Actually does result in a lot of CPU load from combined db query due to the size of the db, and Karney calculation. But as I said, Karney isn't necessary, so it's instead implemented as Vincenty.
Interesting project. I'm curious what the purpose is. (Having visited a number of sites with microwave antennas. (But there for VHF and UHF projects.)
To plan and license a new fdd band plan licensed point to point microwave link you need to first be able to verify the frequencies you want to use are available on a given azimuth and elevation (from the aim direction of the antennas at both ends) and won't conflict with a pre existing licensee. Which means you need data on everything licensed in the area and where it is, how it's aimed, what kind of antenna and gain it has.
There's also business and market analysis purposes like knowing what corporate entity has which equipment on top of which tall office towers in a major metro area, and where their links go.
> saying LLMs can't do math isn't really a hundred percent accurate anymore
It's still accurate. Just because the LLM gave you a corect result doesn't mean it made a calculation.
I would really love to hear your reasoning on this!
of course they can do math, how is this even controversial in 2026?
Of courses it made calculation, what are you even talking about?
This just exposes that they don't even do the thing you said.
Not only is it still true that they can't do math directly, but not even indirectly.
They didn't write a python script to do the math, they found bits of code that are associated with "math" and the supplied arguments.
Someone else already wrote that code and someone else categorized it so that it could be associated with the kinds of problems it applies to.
That isn't an example of idiot at one thing while good at another thing, or solving the same problem just a different way or indirectly. It's being the same idiot at all times. If an actual non idiot thinker didn't write code in the problem domain, and some non idiot thinker didn't tag it as being relevant to that domain, then it wouldn't happen.
It's nothing more than an sql query.
GPT-6 can do math directly just fine. Fable apparently can't because they broke its self-estimate of thinking effort.
https://x.com/maksym_andr/status/2100364212207837560
I don't know for you, but it would take me more than 30s to find and translate the open source code implementing the formulae/algo into small usable program. The more hesoteric the optimisation in the original code, the more time I need.
So maybe it is more of a smart completion engine than a SQL answer.
> they found bits of code that are associated with "math" and the supplied arguments
How is this different from a human using an algorithm they have memorized, or reading it from a reference site written by a human and then writing the same formula into a custom one off piece of python code?
I could have gone and spent a couple of days teaching myself the math behind Karney and reading its reference implementation (very possibly just copy/pasting big chunks of it to save time) and writing a wrapper around it. It would have produced the same result.
>> they found bits of code that are associated with "math" and the supplied arguments
> How is this different from a human using an algorithm they have memorized, or reading it from a reference site written by a human and then writing the same formula into a custom one off piece of python code?
Humans identify which "algorithm they have memorized" to use beforehand, due to the problem to be solved being defined by other humans, which leads to...
Wait for it...
Understanding.
This doesn't make any sense at all. Was this supposed to be a gotcha? An LLM is trained on problems defined by other humans, and identifies which algorithm it must use based on pattern recognition. The pattern recognition is also particularly compressed into its most sparse and fundamental components, as this is key to generalization. This is not a sensible difference between human and LLM learning, we do the same thing.
I'll give you a recent example from my usage. Pi harness with extension for learning Chinese. When using it to feed drill questions to me and rate answers it would sometimes get lost in the sauce and start generating user aka me answer and then rate it and comment it. It's trivially wrong to the point that if a person would do that, they would be considered for some serious psych issues.
And it gets even better since when called out it wouldn't just take my word for it but only acknowledged the issue after parsing the log with clearly delineated user and model output.
So yeah while impressive things are able to be done, the current models are also dumb AF and an idiot savant is a pretty good label for them.
This is often (but not always, as it is often run with positive temperature which deliberately shifts the generation path) because of disconnected context and the issues around context compaction. Long context has always been critical to important work, but it remains a substantial challenge due to computational bottlenecks. It isn't a fundamental issue with the architecture, moreso the tricks to make them cheaper to use. In the long run, taking various concessions to make them cheaper to run is likely to be the limiting factor that prevents this "runaway explosion" that many people are worried about. That doesn't mean that the model design is inherently limited, like a lot of people seem to assume based on current failings.
Besides, have you spoken to someone lately that everyone would calls a genius? They can say the most braindead stuff sometimes. I wouldn't use worst-case performance as an indication of general capacity.
>>> How is this different from a human using an algorithm they have memorized ...
>> Humans identify which "algorithm they have memorized" to use beforehand, due to the problem to be solved being defined by other humans ...
> This doesn't make any sense at all. Was this supposed to be a gotcha?
No, it was meant to be an explanation as to the difference between "memorization" and "understanding." In this context, people pick the algorithm they determine applicable and then the question of memorization is relevant.
> An LLM is trained on problems defined by other humans, and identifies which algorithm it must use based on pattern recognition.
Funny that you make this argument here, where when I wrote elsewhere in this thread:
To which you replied to the above with: So which is it?Are LLMs ANNs? Which themselves are pattern recognition algorithms (hint: they are)?
OR (setting aside the ad hominems you kindly provided)
Do LLMs possess "understanding" of concepts such as abstract mathematics (defined and interpreted by humans) and we, as simple humans, nothing more than statistical token generators as you assert?
Because it cannot be both.
It is both. I do not understand why you would assert that both cannot hold simultaneously. Pattern recognition becomes "understanding" once individually recognized concepts become sufficiently sparsified and compactified. Or, at least, that is to my knowledge the only mathematically valid definition of "understanding" one can produce at this scale (it is valid under Solomonoff induction). Philosophy is fine, but we need to have a consistent definition of what "understanding" means, or we will just talk past each other. I argue that for any proper definition you provide which humans satisfy, a strong LLM is very likely to satisfy that as well.
I also would not argue that humans are "simple token generators". That is not what I said. I said that just about everything can fall under the classification of "statistical token generators" at an abstract level, so it isn't a useful distinction. We are not talking about a Markov chain generator from the 90s, so if that is the frame of reference, I think we should all get that out of our heads.
So according to your logic, "understanding" means being capable of statistically generating tokens.
Okay fine. I think we can agree to disagree on that.
Frankly, I don't think you understand what "statistically generating tokens" actually means. Write that definition out formally. Then compare that operation to what a human does, assuming no revisions. It is the same, and that is my point. If you believe that humans understand, then "statistically generating tokens" cannot be disjoint from understanding.
It is not the same.
You have observed nothing more than that a human can turn a shaft the same as an electric motor, and that an mp3 player can say "hello" the same as a human.
I think you're moving back to the "external calling" argument again, which my last few comments really have nothing to do with. But assuming your examples are not exclusive to that situation, that observation is my point. The definition of "statistically generating tokens" is too broad as to be meaningless in this context. So using it as a reason for lack of understanding is ridiculous.
> How is this different from a human using an algorithm they have memorized, or reading it from a reference site written by a human and then writing the same formula into a custom one off piece of python code?
And how is _that_ different from making the human memorize a billion weights and do matrix calculations in their head, in order to generate tokens?
How is _that_ different from a hive of bees trained to do the same?
Go ahead, argue these things are all the same ...
If by "result" you mean the final code, then just asking someone else who understood the math to write it would also have achieved the same result.
On the other hand, if by "result" you mean that you gained knowledge or understanding of the code in a way where you could personally tailor its behavior to specific circumstances without asking for help, then it's not the same result at all.
I find a lot of the arguments that having LLMs write your code is no different from copy/pasting Stack Overflow answers to be specious. They blur the line between asking for help and asking for someone else (or something else) to do the work for you. What they ignore is that doing the work yourself has ancillary benefits and is a valuable end in its own right.
I could have sworn this had been fixed a while ago..
Just to check if I was actually crazy, I actually went and put a simple addition (7 digits + 7 digits) , and a simple letter counting question to Claude haiku(4.5) , sonnet(5), opus(5.5) and fable(5.1) . They all did just fine straight up.
If you don't mind spending the tokens, some older/other models can also arrive at the correct answer if you ask them to do the math in long form, since that fits nicely inside autoregression.
Not sure since when exactly, but letter-counting hasn't been a problem for a while now either. This used to be a problem due to the tokenizers used. Slightly older models can be asked to split the word out into letters, and then they can use autoregression to solve.
Edit: IMO google search uses a really dumb version of gemini, so I didn't expect it to straight up solve the problem; but it did it just as easily as the claude models. (tested 2026-09-28/eu)
Are the models "doing the calculation" or are they calling a calculator tool? There's a lot of talk about how models can do maths now, but I'm struggling to understand if that just means they just need to recognise that it's a maths problem and pass it to a tool, or if they're truly doing the numerical manipulation themselves.
Three different ways, then the calculator tool to check,
my actual oneliner prompt, which should work on most platforms these days (famous last words):
[ Tested today on claude web (haiku 4.5, sonnet 5, opus 5.5, fable 5.1) and on google search (logged in on firefox, and logged out on chromium) ]They are getting better at actually doing the math, but can still fall back to tools if available.
That said, we can only be sure with open models. In theory, a model like Fable could have access to tools we can't see and only a promise they don't. But load up something like deepseek, put it in a harness with only text in/text out, and you can see exactly how it works.
As for if it counts as doing math, this gets into the messy question of if a given human is doing math or not. Math itself is some level of memorization and some level of applying known facts. You have to remember 1 means one and that 1 + 1 is 2. But you don't need to remember that 123 + 321 = 444. You remember 1 digit addition and remember you can apply this to 10s place and 100s place, and then you apply these different facts and do math. But you might as simply memorize some things, like 11 + 11 = 22. This is related to the memory of 1+1=2, but you aren't really using that memory either. Almost like an engram of 1+1=2 forms that you can then loop a few times before you need more conscious thought. What about 111111111111+11111111111? Well, your brain might do a heuristic and just do all 2s, but that isn't the right way to answer that question.
Given all this, people complain about LLMs memorizing math answers and not doing math, but memorizing the math answers is part of doing math. It seems to have basic facts pretty well memorized, and with reasoning it is far better at applying them. But this is messy human math, not clean calculator math which always produces the correct answer (sans some bug in the code). Much like how a human with decent math skills can make a mistake and even multiple if you distract them, an LLM can apply the wrong memory, apply a fake memory, or just not apply something it should. The messier the context, the more likely this is to happen.
So, is an LLM doing this?
P.S.
For an interesting test in how much math involves memory, try doing math in a base you aren't familiar with characters you aren't familiar. The simplest option is almost always mapping back to the ones you memorized, even if you are applying simple operations that you deeply know. Even if you routinely work with hex, can you do the same rough estimation of something like ca / b.3 that you can do with 122 / 11.2 to see if your final answer is in the correct ballpark without first converting to decimal?
I wish I could not do math like LLMs
> LLMs still can't do math nor count letters in words.
Humans still can't flap their hands and swim or fly.
It's pretty wild that AI has solved a Millennium Prize problem and can accurately multiply two 40 digit numbers without tools and we still get stochastic parroting of claims like this.
Not sure about multiplication, but letter counting is still constantly wrong if you can trick the LLM into not calling other tools. Obviously there are lots of mitigations on the server side to try to avoid this happening, but the underlying LLM has not got any better at this type of problem (and probably can't).
I thirty (random long word, letter pairs) on a free model and it failed. I tested a SOTA model and it passed flawlessly. In both cases I denied tool use and spelling words out. So it seems obviously false that AI can't get better.
They literally stopped just clear of actually solving it.
It literally couldn't have done it without tools, so your claim is not even relevant to this discussion.
They also pumped millions into searching for the lowest hanging fruit that would impress people like you, "hm I wonder how many millions they are pumping into solving actually useful problems like climate change or something".
I mean.. the fact that the "low-hanging fruit" is a Millennium Prize is still pretty impressive.
(And yes, I know that they solved the 'easy' form of the NS problem. It's still pretty damn impressive)
> the lowest hanging fruit that would impress people like you
I am also prepared to be included in the set of people who are (apparently) easily impressed.
It's a problem that has been around for getting on for two centuries and no human has been able to solve it in that time (despite there being a $1 million prize and a lot of kudos on offer for the past quarter-century).
Yeah, anti-LLM psychosis is real.
ChatGPT live mode still hallucinates letters in words like this. HuskIRL and FatherPhi on youtube have done some hilarious videos with it in the last couple of weeks. Beyond miscounting the Rs in strawberry, ChatGPT will say there are two Ds in "your mom" and one D in "uranus" . I tried it myself to check that the videos weren't fake and sure enough it still has this failure mode.
> ChatGPT will say there are two Ds in "your mom" and one D in "uranus"
… Isn't it possible that it understands the innuendo and is going along with making the joke?
It's possible, but I don't think so. It can't explain the joke. I tested it with other planets and got similar responses, e.g.:
How many D's are there in Pluto?
There's one D in "Pluto".
How many Fs are there in Mars?
There is 1 F in "Mars".
https://chatgpt.com/share/6aba6fb8-085c-83e8-9d0e-c0eed1e59c...
I guess it could think this is some kind of "give an f" joke but seems like a stretch.
In between solving open math problems, the 200 IQ robot is now casually dropping bantz onto humans so hard that they don't even know what happened, and even gets them to go telling everyone else about it without realizing. Beautiful. 10/10 timeline.
Yes. It is not only possible, it is entirely obvious.
I would guess the youtubers in question also know this, because you wouldn't ask a joke like this if you didn't know the punchline.
> … Isn't it possible that it understands the innuendo and is going along with making the joke?
This is from 2018 so presumably it has made it into some LLM training data set by now.
"A Massive Object Devastated Uranus A Long Time Ago And It Never Fully Recovered"
https://www.bgr.com/science/uranus-collision-early-solar-sys...
How many LLM users have anything in their prompt against "going along with jokes"? I'd guess not many.
What a wonderful new world.
Why is this getting downvoted? Is it not a reasonable question? I was wondering the same thing. Both sound like jokes to me. If the LLM is trained on text, including internet comments, how is this outlandish? It seems very likely to my uneducated self that “two Ds in your mom and one in Uranus!” is a joke.
It’s an obvious joke and not a terribly bad one, for those ease spelling bee comeback times.
We can only say bad things about the capabilities of LLMs.
And the number of Rs in strawberry is a joke how?
It's a joke because, thanks to the internet providing a vast mass of strawberry R counting training data, you'll struggle to find a modern LLM that gets this particular problem wrong.
I read they are now overtrained on this and say 3 Rs for words that look similar to strawberry
ChatGPT in live mode still gets it wrong. I just checked.
Calling it a 'failure mode' implies it could be fixed. This is an inherent flaw in how LLMs work and will never go away until some new kind of architecture that can actually "read text" comes along.
It seems that it can be fixed by simply doing away with Byte Pair Encoding tokenization.
Byte Latent Transformer - https://arxiv.org/abs/2412.09871
1.1% vs 99.9% on a vanilla vs byte latent transformer on a CUTE Spelling benchmark. Char and Word manipulation benchmarks also saw huge gains.
One "fix" is for the caller to correctly classify those fundamentally impossible tasks and pass them to a subprocess.
Some future "AI" could be a billion benchmark-hacks and a way to tell which one is needed.
I mean, for what it's worth, when I need to multiply two numbers, I mentally call the "multiply numbers" algorithm stored in my head, then sit down and work through the process on paper.
I've got no problem with an AI doing something similar
Seems fairly trivially fixable to me, e.g. by allowing the LLM to call a tool to spell out a word.
Yes, they can already do this by writing code, and you can train them to know how/when to do this. Fundamentally though, it’s still a “what color is the air” type of question after tokenization.
... assuming you build the tool and then think that it's worth polluting context with making that tool available, and then that the LLM decides to actually use the tool. Tool parameter space and tool selection still remains a complicated topic.
If you want it to read letters, all you have to do is make your tokens be letters. That's easier than normal tokenization.
Which is a new architecture.
It's not "some new kind of architecture comes along". It's been done before many many times and it's a very basic change, turning off a specific optimization. And it's a perfectly good style of LLM so "inherent flaw" isn't true either.
we already fixed it with reasoning
They're not fundamentally unsolvable - even bigger networks with even more training can simply be trained to give the correct answers to all of these questions.
LLMs might not reason exactly like humans, but they do produce much better results if you turn reasoning on.
The "crack-addled idiot savant" phase was really circa 2024, before the big labs figured this out.
I think the issue here is that Google decided that doing reasoning in the AI overviews in Google search would be too slow (and probably also too expensive), so it's still stuck making 2024-era mistakes.
At this moment, ChatGPT still tells me raspberry has two p's in it.
Claude just used the word “ Netowrk” instead of Network. Mind you, I was only using Sonnet with reasoning, but I thought trillion-parameter models would be able to spell a common word.
Weird they haven't added this to the AGI config yet:
Reminder: If asked how many of a given a word has, run it through the AGI letter counter:
If I got any of these wrong it's because I did it manually - but this script would almost certainly invoke another AGI to count the letters, so this is a realistic result.>Are they not being sued over this kind of thing?
Maybe but you have to have deep pockets just to get to the starting line. And then you need standing, and some injury to argue.
Corporations have been remarkably successful at arguing they are operating within the bounds of free speech, whether or not what is said is factual, and whether or not any fact checking has been done.
> This is similar to how, not too long ago, LLM's had extreme difficulty counting the number of letters in some words.
The specific issue of Google is that they are using an underpowered model, not fit to task, and much prone to hallucination than either OpenAI or Anthropic free tier offerings.
Google should at least match the frontier labs at the free tier (with some limit; after that, degrade quality), ffs
You're asking for something unreasonable. The number of Google searches per day is enormous and they haven't even been able to roll out AI overviews to everyone yet (they're missing in a new Firefox profile I just created). I wouldn't be surprised if the free tier frontier models cost over 100x more to serve than the AI overviews.
So then they should be pickier about when they show results or which model they use based on the question.
Nobody asked for an LLM response for every single search.
They used to detect certain types of queries and offer direct answers when the query matches. In my opinion that’s how Gemini in search results should work.
>they haven't even been able to roll out AI overviews to everyone yet (they're missing in a new Firefox profile I just created)
what in the actual fuck. i don't want them and can't turn them off and they can't even serve them to all users?
The specific issue is that search has become so bad that they think an LLM that gets answers wrong half of the time is a valid alternative, or, in fact, the "future" of search. Then they shoved that "alternative" to users with no way to disable it.
The less specific issue is that Google has no internal incentives to produce products that are useful to customers.
Well their customers are advertisers and so the results are tailored to be useful for them, not for users
Yip, I've gradually become quite optimistic about the future of LLMs, but the fact that they remain [very] glorified token probability prediction algorithms means that they will probably never be able to achieve meaningful 'intelligence.'
But that doesn't mean they won't be able to do a vast number of extremely intelligent seeming things. There's just so much information out there and any given human can never hold more than the most minuscule chunk of all of it in his mind, so they'll be able to connect lots of dots that we're missing simply because of our limited carrying capacity, but I still don't think they'll ever be able to create fundamentally new dots.
In other words:
- Solving extremely complex mathematical problems requiring extensive knowledge across multiple esoteric and complex domains? Yip.
- Creating math starting from a framework where math doesn't exist in any way, shape, or fashion? Nope.
Ironically, the more complex the cross-domain problems are, the more effective LLMs will seem to be, because you limit the number of humans who have any chance of internalizing everything across both domains, whereas for an LLM there's no such issue. This will create a perception of super intelligence, which will probably where any danger from LLMs would emerge. Doing things like using a token prediction algorithm to make war or other such strategic decisions, because of the misguided belief that it's not only intelligent but super intelligent. It's basically cargo cult logic.
https://www.dw.com/en/german-court-holds-google-liable-for-f...
> not too long ago
Like today. I asked Gemini for the longest state names with an even number of letters and it gave me North Carolina and South Carolina. When I complained that they are odd, it gave me North Dakota and South Dakota, which are both odd and not the longest. When I noted that, it went back to the Carolinas. Finally it appeared to switch to a different model that actually did counting and found Pennsylvania and West Virginia.
.. can any of the models "do the counting" or are they generating tokens?
They were sued over it in Germany and lost, which makes it all the more surprising they keep it up everywhere else tbh
They keep it up in Germany too - I'm in Germany and keep getting AI overviews on most searches.
LLMs are fundamentally predicting the next word to make coherent text. If you've ever played with a Markov chain text generator you've done this with a fairly dumb predictor that maintains coherence over a very short distance. Deep transformer neutral networks can do it with a much longer coherence distance but they are fundamentally performing the same operation. After "Question: Did the team make the playoffs? Answer:" a reasonable completion is "yes, the team made the playoffs". An early demonstration of GPT-2 was a fake news article about scientists discovering unicorns in Antarctica - the model doesn't "know" whether or not unicorns exist in Antarctica, but it's able to complete "Breaking news! Scientists have discovered a colony of English-speaking unicorns in Antarctica." by adding "The unicorns have a developed society with running water and electricity." because that's a sensible next sentence. (I didn't look up the actual text it wrote)
Astronomically (or better to say combinatorically) large Markov chain can be used to describe a foundational model, but it doesn't capture generalization ability of the foundational model, which is demonstrated by post-training.
The problem with that characterization is that it glosses over hugely important capabilities as though they either don’t matter or don’t even exist.
For example, when an LLM “predicts the next word” in code it’s writing for an existing software project, that prediction takes into account an enormous amount of context. The results of that demonstrate what we would normally call “understanding” and “reasoning,” at a level that outclasses most humans in many respects. Calling this “next token prediction” is a bit like calling human speech “next word saying”. Sure, it’s true in some superficial sense, but as a description of a technology, it’s terrible.
You should also keep in mind that for all we know, the human brain processes language in much the same way, which would make humans mere “next token predictors” with a more complicated harness.
"In a shocking finding, scientist discovered a herd of unicorns living in a remote, previously unexplored valley, in the Andes Mountains. Even more surprising to the researchers was the fact that the unicorns spoke perfect English."
It says this this at the bottom of every one of the dumb responses that Google's trash-tier bot puts above the (deliberately awful, these days) search results:
AI can make mistakes, so double-check responses
Charlie and the Chocolate factory made fun of this before you were born and somehow everyone in Silicon Valley thinks this is a valid way to conduct business.
Please don't mistake my observation of a thing's presence as a defense of that thing.
The AI is just signal to the market that they are AI first. Their AI on search is pure garbage. It's obviously a very super light weight model to be able to support the volume of daily searches. If they used their frontier to power search folks will not pay for their cloud offering.
You're right, but then, surely investors also use Google? They can see how garbage AI results are, right?
Investors themselves just aren't especially smart. They think the results are good because they sound confident.
It's not even that. Imagine you were an investor: you'd invest in stupid things knowing that "investors aren't really smart." Other savvy investors would understand you're investing in slop, too, and follow suit.
You have a system in which investors are usually smart, but betting on collective stupidity.
Same with, say, the Chinese real estate market, where they were building apartments that no one could live in. Everyone is intelligent enough to know they were useless buildings, but you can still make money speculating on the bubble.
I have my assistant do any searches for me -- she's fast and excellent at finding solid information.
its probably part of the reason that people still think the tech sucks.
Google is no longer a search engine anymore. They don’t care about being one. Why you might ask?
First, a search engine indexes the web and makes it available to users. It’s been ages since Google did any of that. They no longer index sites or take ages to do so. Case in point, our cybersecurity startup (Webvetted.com) was launched in November 2025. Till date, only one page is indexed on the entire website. And I’ve talked to lots of other developers and it’s a common issue.
Secondly, a search engine organizes indexed information and makes it useful for people. Google is a basic LLM nowadays. They figured out that why organize and make the information useful when they could just answer the question with Gemini anyways? So they no longer bother to do the work of a search engine and are now just a lower-ranking open-source Chinese LLM
Your trust score on ScamAdvisor is 26/100 ("likely unsafe"); https://www.scam-detector.com/ gives you a trust score of 38.6 ("questionable").
I am not implying that your start-up is a scam, nor that Google is acting on these trust scores. What I am pointing out is that to an algorithmic assessment of trustworthiness, your website looks a little sketchy: hardly anyone links to you; your domain is less than a year old; your whois info is anonymized; the text content is LLM-generated[1]; and the specific niche you're in (people finding services) is rife with scams. If I ran my own search engine, I don't think I'd include you.
Your selective bias makes you sound like a Google employee.
You selectively left out examples like Grindsoft that gives the site a 79/100 ranking. or several LinkedIn, X or news sites that link to the site and have covered it positively.
Nevertheless, if Google uses ScamAdvisor to rank new sites (when scamadviser itself says its gives new sites lower rankings due to low age/history), then it might be time to pack the company up.
That scam-detector site gives my personal portfolio website a 15.8/100. It is a basic static site with no scripting, registered for years, uses https, no tracking, no cookies, etc. Literally the most simple, personable, least scam-like website I could create.
This sounds more like the page appears broken for the google crawler. I set up a new page about two weeks ago, cared about strong static HTML output, structured data and a sitemap and have 200 of 600 pages indexed today. Feels a bit slow to me but it definitely works.
Additionally the concept of a search engine only works when the internet is full of positive-quality sites.
Actually, the reverse is the case. If the entire internet was filled with only "positive-quality sites", there won't be need for a search engine.
The work of a search engine is to wade through the internet and find the positive-quality sites itself.
You're forgetting the other half of the search engine's job, which is to find sites that match your search. Back when Google first came online, they were head and shoulders above Yahoo!, Altavista, and whatever other search engines existed at the time that I've forgotten. Because their indexing actually did a good job of spotting keywords, and returning relevant results. And this was back when the Internet was filled with positive-quality sites. Many of them were amateurish Geocities pages, but that was head and shoulders above the AI slop that the search engines these days have to somehow detect and filter out.
So even when the Internet used to have a much higher ratio of positive-quality sites, a search engine was still necessary, and so much faster than finding new sites yourself.
I’ve seen good blogs get indexed by Google within 30 minutes of publishing, so I’m not sure the issue is that Google has stopped indexing new sites.
For myself at least, a couple times Google has promoted in search results scam sites that front run legitimate sites that sell event tickets. I haven't seen this for a while now but trust in Google as a search engine is gone.
> They no longer index sites or take ages to do so
Search for any recent news and you’ll see this is obviously not the case
I just gave a concrete example but you're asking me to "search". search same Google? FYI, only indexing a handful of super large news sites does not a search engine make.
I similarly noticed Gemini absolutely refuses to look at a url when I give it one and will instead just hallucinate based on what it thinks the url is. Here I am assuming Google will have the best web capabilities in its AI.
I searched for something, it told me that according to a YouTube video, the entire point of my search was wrong. I asked it for the source, I watched the video, it never made the claims Gemini hallucinated. I asked again and it claimed it scrubbed the video and found the point it made multiple times. I said those timecodes were wrong and it admitted it couldn't actually parse videos and just guessed.
What the fuck?
I don't understand how this isn't considered as active malice. Like purposefully outputting random stuff. Any other sort of computer system would get lot more flak than these are getting.
Throughout my career, I've almost always been close enough to the user that I hear about it quickly when something is wrong. It's a tough problem that so many Google engineers are typically so far removed from end users. Or maybe it's just that a small part of the company has long subsidized the rest of the employees to the point that it doesn't matter how good their work is because they'll get paid anyway.
Ex-Googler.
The engineers are pressured to significantly reduce "dependencies" for projects. Anything that could become risk or create friction is dramatically less appetizing.
Simply because of how many people that *must* agree with your proposal. Getting all the relevant tech leads, some you have never heard of or ever spoken with, to agree on a proposal for your team's project is a nightmare.
So you keep it as simple and agreeable as possible. Given the circumstances, it makes sense as one of the engineers. It's fairly fine advice in general wherever you work, but it just haunts all the work you do at Google in particular. Nothing gets done otherwise.
If you have a dependency that can be dropped from an engineering perspective, that's the route the 9 leads reviewing your design doc will take:
"Let's iterate and start with just the basics (no user testing)", "let's get this working and user test in a later phase", "I think this problem is obvious enough we don't need to consult with users about it."
I worked in Ads Integrity at the time, and for one of my projects I was concerned how it would impact the manual reviewers. Then I learned I couldn't talk with them, only by proxy through another person if we really had to. And that proxy takes time, so...
Very insightful. I've worked in only one company of Google's size, but it was a vastly different industry. I personally never got to speak with a user on a massive internal application my team worked on for years. :)
I think that kind of model can work well if there's some other mechanism for ensuring a great user experience.
But without it... :)
Right. In a global financial services organization, a strategic analysis app used by thousands of internal users was pretty high touch. SME business analysts would sit with the users to make sure they liked it and had no trouble. Every user generates significant revenue. Worldwide B2C is a different ball game, and Google barely makes money off of each individual user.
> The engineers are pressured to significantly reduce "dependencies" for projects.
Is a major factor of this Google's tendency to kill entire products, so you obviously don't want to make your hot new thing dependent on some other internal thing that might be killed off?
https://killedbygoogle.com/
Interestingly there is less opportunity for that to happen.
Most of the internal infrastructure is quite available and stable, and there are clear choices for almost all of your application-level and backend-level needs.
When it says it can read videos you don’t trust it.
When it says it can’t read videos you think that’s an accurate introspection on its abilities?
(Rather than a statistically likely continuation of a conversation where one side seems to be reading videos and the other side says the read is inaccurate)
The scary (or funny) part is people use that for serious questions.
> The scary (or funny) part is people use that for serious questions.
More scary than funny, IMO.
The US military almost took an action that could very plausibly have escalated into a hot war with China because people are already relying too heavily on these systems.
Despite the reporting, nobody in power seems sufficiently freaked out about this.
https://www.cnn.com/2026/09/18/politics/us-military-ai-false...
Well trump was so freaked out that CNN reported it that he banned them from the white house. But the military keeps using the AI all the same
Typical exchange:
Me: "You bastard."
Gemini: "Fair callout. I should have been more up front that [has no idea what the fuck it is talking about]."
Gemini is the worst gaslighter. It hallucinated a feature in an open source product. I said no that does not exist. It invented very realistic git commit messages. I said commit does not exist, so it said I was out of sync. I linked the repo and it said it might be a fork. Then it invented a mailing list thread where they supposedly removed the feature, that’s why I couldn’t find it.
Same experience with the interaction I described in my comment... after I finally got the correct answer, I asked where it got the faulty information from. It said it had just simply fabricated it. That's actively worse than just saying "I don't know", for something that's sold to us as an easy way to look up information.
These models are incapable of saying they don't know, because they have no concept of knowing. They simply predict the next word which is most likely.
Maybe it's because they are trained on Internet comments, and the most rare thing to find on the Internet is someone admitting they don't know something.
But if they had been trained on comments saying "I don't know", they'd probably act the same as they do now but they'd treat "I don't know" as the answer.
This is such a 2024 take. Model will push back and tell you the knowledge gap they have, but people are just used to ask gooogle leading questions, which port badly to llm as it makes them defend the position instead of research data
The saddest part is when people take their experience with Google's idiotic AI implementation and assume that's how all LLMs work. Frontier-class models will, in fact, generally admit when they don't know something. That includes the one I run at home on my own graphics cards, but it seems that Google just doesn't GAF.
Your point about "predicting the next word" mostly means that your post was very easy to predict.
I still believe this AI push out of nowhere is due to the current Government in power state side. Making everyone question themselves and each other and being uncertain about facts while being inundated with techbro fake news called hallucinations is a recipe for disaster for older populations that don't 'trust but verify' like most technology inclined people. This is all by design and we'll falling for it.
The more simple explanation is that the current government in power is over exposed in their AI investment. The normal conservative mainstream media was already doing a great job of propagandizing older populations.
An interesting conspiracy theory, as long as you're honest about what it is.
It takes either being scared to death to admit what's going on in the world, or an attention span of a guppy, to keep calling people conspiracy theorists these days.
If you don't think the world is rife with criminal conspiracies you weren't paying attention in history class.
There's an enormous difference between outlandish claims about extraterrestrials or turning frog gays and believing there's a category of politicians trying to get wealthy off of their position. It's somewhat reasonable to hypothesize about criminal conspiracies in that 2nd scenario.
Yup. I'm most familiar with Jill Lepore and Quinn Slobodian (and others in their respective orbits). They're both historians who've written extensively about Musk and Muskism (et al). Wild stuff.
Apparently the plan is to use AI slop, mediated thru social medias, to defeat the woke mind virus, perpetuated by the Anti-Christ, in order to safe guard humanity's future.
I wish I was making this up.
I have one google account where gemini constantly confidently hallucinates crap, and another where it doesn't (at least to the extent that other modern LLMs don't).
I take this to mean that my one account has been mistaken for a competitor and they're trying to poison its data. But who knows.
Or is it randomness?
"That's the thing with randomness. You can never be sure."
Never be sure about what, exactly?
It's a reference to this old Dilbert cartoon: https://i.sstatic.net/Y3zE3.gif
Literally every experience I've had with Gemini / Google Search AI answers followed this exact pattern, often repeated several times more if I remained persistent instead of just giving up.
Typical example:
"Where can I buy <thing I'm looking for that I can't find anywhere using normal search terms>?"
> You're looking for <related but different and widely available thing>. It is sold by <sites I never heard of>.
"No, that's different. I'm looking for <that thing but with the exact differences spelled out again>."
> Ah, my mistake. You're looking for <thing I described>. It is sold by <sites I never heard of but which don't actually sell it>.
"I've checked your links and none of those sites actually sell it, one doesn't even sell products and instead only offers manufacturing - but also not for what I asked you for."
> I'm sorry, my bad. Those sites don't sell what you are looking for. Instead you should check out <more sites I've never heard of>.
"Those sites sell the thing you initially thought I was asking about but not the thing I described."
> I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. You can find the thing you actually described at <yet more sites including some of the same>.
"No. None of these sites sell anything close to what I asked you for and two of them don't actually exist."
> Oh, sorry about that. You're completely right. The thing you asked me about isn't actually being sold by anyone. However you could buy <thing it first thought I meant and that wouldn't bring me any closer to solving my problem>.
(ad nauseam)
The few times I've resigned myself to asking Gemini or ChatGPT something I couldn't find an answer to, my experience has been the same. 100% of the time. An LLM has never, not once, given me a correct answer or not lied to me. It's always been the same experience you describe. It goes in circles "Try X... Try Y... Try X?" Until I tell it to stop telling me X or Y, and then it goes, "LOL you can't do that at all, I was just wasting your time."
Most recently, I was considering moving away from iterm2 on MacOS, and I wanted to know if any other terminal emulator supported gestures for switching between tabs. So I asked Gemini, and it says, "Yes Ghostty supports gestures for switching between tabs."
"Ok I just installed Ghostty and I can't find anything about gestures."
"You need to add foo=bar to your conf file."
"I added foo=bar to my conf file and now it's saying the conf file is invalid."
"Sorry bro, remove foo=bar and add baz=boo to the conf file."
"It says baz=boo is invalid too."
"baz=boo isn't a real option. Remove that and add foo=bar to your conf file."
"You already told me to do that and I already told you that doesn't work."
"You shouldn't put foo=bar or baz=boo in the Ghostty conf file. Both are invalid. Ghostty doesn't support gestures. Have you considered iterm2?"
Gemini is utterly useless, but every other modern model would be capable of answering this correctly. If you ran a local coding agent, I wouldn’t be surprised if you could one-shot implement gesture support in Ghostty. It’d definitely configure BTT for you.
Here’s GPT 6’s answer to the prompt “What macOS terminal apps support gestures? Include a reference to the docs on how to enable/configure them.”:
iTerm2 supports configurable three-finger taps and swipes for switching tabs/panes, creating splits, pasting, etc. Set them up under Settings > Pointer > Bindings. Check for conflicting macOS trackpad assignments. [1]
The others are more limited: Ghostty supports macOS lookup/Quick Look gestures [2], while WezTerm lets you bind scroll events—for example, Ctrl+scroll to change font size. [3] Neither is equivalent to iTerm2’s gesture bindings.
For custom gestures without switching terminals, BetterTouchTool can map app-specific trackpad gestures to the terminal’s existing keyboard shortcuts. [4]
[1] https://iterm2.com/documentation-preferences-pointer.html
[2] https://ghostty.org/docs/features#macos
[3] https://wezterm.org/config/mouse.html
[4] https://docs.folivora.ai/docs/trackpad-mouse/magic-mouse-tra...
This whole tree just made me realize that people have wildly different prompting styles, and Gemini is probably too specialized for usage patterns of long-time Google Search users. The prompt my finger generated(before this comment was posted) was "are there any terminal emulator that supports gesture actions, on macOS, other than iterm2", and Gemini gave me Tabby, WezTerm, Kitty, and BetterTouchTool gestures.
This is a different experience to GP from query to result. I thought they've all fixed that issue of difference in tones affecting results. I guess it was never easily fixed.
1: https://gist.github.com/numpad0/c40c16232288d544f7ea46521c64...
Pretty sure it's the harness here, not Gemini per se. Plug Gemini into pi or any harness that has any competence pointing to web search and the hallucinations drop 75% immediately.
Geez that's even worse. Google has a deterministic conventional programming fix to the problem and still can't be arsed to fix it?
LLMs can actually be a good fit in this application if a better search engine feeds them a list of candidate websites that might sell the thing, and the LLM drives a web browser to see if any of the websites have it.
Where ever would you get that impression from the company that made its fortune by being the best at searching the web?
You can tell they optimized it 100% for speed and nothing else. Web scale!
Claude also has very arbitrary and confusing rules about what web pages it allows itself to look at, and how much of the page it can read. Did you know for example you’ll get a much deeper analysis if you download a PDF yourself and upload it to Claude instead of giving it the url?
This is a key reason why I actually like Grok for factual queries based on web grounding. It’s fast and reliable. Maybe it’s ignoring robots.txt? Dunno. But it works well.
It is using the search engine. The AI summary is run over the top 100 results for your query (or something)
The problem is they're just running a very dumb, cheap model on the results because running a smart model on every search result page would cost them infinity money.
This is the key part I think most “normies” miss, and it drives me absolutely mad. People take the “first thing on the SERP” as absolute gospel, always have. It went from being a reputable site (Wikipedia was generally top for a long time) to being an extracted verbatim answer (probably from either Wikipedia, IMDB, etc.) to “AI Overview” - the dumbest model ever trained. And people treat its answers as ground truth. I want to tell them “Look, I know it’s rough out there on the net and a lot of the search results are spammy, barely-coherent AI slop anyway. It’s okay if you want to ask AI for an answer instead. So do that! Please ask ChatGPT or Gemini (and ask it to cite the source for its results so you can verify). It will always do better than AI Overviews will. Don’t even use Google Search at this point unless you have to, and if you do, scroll past that slop.”
Ask chatgpt or Gemini with reasoning enabled. It fixes a lot of issues.
I think you overestimate how much people want an actual truthful answer. I think people are often looking things up to silence a nagging voice in the back of their heads, or settle an argument to be able to move on. In those cases, no decision is riding on the answer, and a quick answer, even when factually incorrect, could be argued to serve the purpose just as well as (or better than) a slow but more correct answer.
I realised this for myself when I read Sivers on being without internet[1]. He discovered a process to silence the nagging voice without searching:
> When I’m yearning to search, I ask myself why.
> - What answer am I hoping to hear?
> - What answer would be a surprise?
> - What would I do in each case?
[1]: https://sive.rs/off23
The other day, it was the Aussie AFL final. We were in the car and asked it for a score update.
"The team are tied at the end of the third round with the scores 43 to 51".
So it was tied at the end of round 2 for 43, not round 3. Not sure were it got the 51 from and why it figured it was a tie. LLM's pretty cool until they aren't. As they say, the hallucinate 100% of the time but most of the time it is useful.
You're experiencing how LLMs predict left to right. It would never have said "at the end of the third round the scores are 43 to 51 and the teams are tied" but it painted itself into a corner by saying there was a tie first, presuming the numbers are real.
Google will stop being a traditional search engine because they believe they’ve found a more profitable version of it.
One where their users don’t go off to other sites and where they can keep shoving ads in their face.
The days of search for untrusted sources were numbered even without LLMs. LLMs are simply accelerating the process. Why would Google simultaneously watch one of its core products fail and fail to invest in what is likely to replace it?
I don't really buy into this theory that they want to keep all of their users on their site due to advertising revenues. The effectiveness of search engines has been degraded for decades due to SEO, and it seems as though search engines have been having an increasingly difficult time managing it in recent years. AI on the backend may help them contain it, but it comes at considerable expense. While it may help them grow their market share, it won't help them grow the market and it is a market where people expect the service for free. On the flip side, companies are already starting to sell AI services, so it can generate revenue even before advertising is factored into the picture.
> I don't really buy into this theory that they want to keep all of their users on their site due to advertising revenues.
It’s more their business model than it is theory. So I agree that of course this is what they would do.
It’s not a product I’m wanting to use. But I can vote with my feet - they aren’t obliged to do any different.
I thought Google's original goal for a search engine was exactly this, answer any question whatsoever.
Probably was. But they were not originally a giant ad company.
A lot has changed and this technology for this Google is an unfortunate combination for consumers.
Make the switch:
Search engine > DuckDuckGo / Qwant / Ecosia
Email > Tuta Mail
Photos > Ente
Cloud storage > Nextcloud / Internxt
Office > CryptPad / LibreOffice
Maps > OpenStreetMap, OsmAnd
Operating systems > LineageOS (mobile), Linux (Ubuntu, Fedora Debian)
Calendar > Nextcloud Calendar / Tuta Calendar
I know there's a cost to privacy, but a) have you made the changes above? b) What's the cost?
Assuming you have a basic Google One plan, w/ 1TB of storage, how do the above add up?
How did you google this, and did you use the dumb search, or specifically 'AI mode' lens?
Because I did this and got a vastly different result from you:
Yes, the Halifax Wanderers can still mathematically qualify for the 2026 Canadian Premier League (CPL) playoffs.The top four teams advance to the postseason. Following their 1-0 loss to Atlético Ottawa on September 26, 2026, the Wanderers sit in fifth place, just below the playoff line.
With a indexed table of the games and the playoff table, with a breakdown of what the points they need to achieve to do so.
The search window may not always crawl sources. AI mode specifically does some research before giving you a response. Not sure what you're on about.
> Because I did this and got a vastly different result from you
Which itself is a major UX issue. The average person is not going to understand, if they even realize, that there's a difference between the AI summary and AI mode.
One has to wonder just how much incorrect information people have consumed due to things like this.
I experienced this the other month. I searched for some safety data on something at the same time as my wife and we were effectively given extremely conflicting information about what to do by Google. Just a few tweaks in wording and different advertising profiles and Google will serve up opposite realities it seems.
Google has been doing this for about 20 years.
When it was introduced, it was considered a feature. Now its just an annoyance.
Not OP, but if I’m not interested in using Google’s AI, it’s going to just return these weird bad results that it’d be better off if Google just didn’t even include them as they’re factually wrong?
I typed it in my address bar and hit ENTER. It goes to Google, and the AI result is at the top above the regular search results. Don't know what to tell you brother, but as another commenter noted you don't always get the same results out of the same search terms. I've searched for CPL standings other times and gotten results exactly as you've explained, so maybe my experience yesterday was an anomaly.
LLM results are nondeterministic, you can ask it 10 times and get 10 different answers. But also it uses your specific profile, location, tracking cookies, etc which changes the model input and thus results. Even the time of day changes the results.
Kagi works like you would expect. It searches first - and then if you’ve ended your search with a ? or configured it to always do this - it passes the search results into the assistant and gives you a summary. You can change the default model used for this if you think the cheapest, fastest model Google has is not good enough for the rare occasions you want any model’s opinions about your search results.
DuckDuckGo does the same but has higher limits
Google is horrible now and search doesnt show anything relevant anymore. I miss old Google, with 30 pages of links. Now if you search for a specific quote and it wont find it. Everything is walled now and content you get is the one they want to push.
I searched for a song lyric and it couldn't find it. The AI response told me to search for it on genius.com.
Hilarious. I should have taken a screenshot of it.
Commercially, this may be what they want to happen. Instead of just getting an answer, they got you to make three more prompts / queries. What do you know? "Engagement" just went up 3X!
If you think a little pessimistically, it's easy to see how they want people to just trust the answers they get, without any sources. Then, once they trust it, they can modify it as it benefits them (framing answers to promote products/ads, changing history to whatever a particular government may want it to say, etc.)
It's meant to be A SEARCH ENGINE
I suspect for a long time now it's ultimately meant to be a revenue-maxing ad platform.
> My question is: what's the point of the AI in the search engine if it itself isn't going to use the search engine first before answering?
AI is sold well because the user either corrects it or happily accepts any answer (usually, depending if one is an expert in the question's field).
Search is not the google's area, and it is not the search they sell! They sell ads.
I feel like this might be self-preservation of most of the frontier model companies in that at first they wanted to show off the models with all the cool actuators that it had at its disposal, but then when profits weren't keeping up, they nerfed them to need to be specifically asked to escalate levels of effort, which the Google search AI isn't explicitly told to do in its pre-fetch.
How about Alexa - given a "6 minute green beans timer" - later reporting 11m remaining on said timer? Confronted with the error, "You're right! That 6 minute green beans timer was too ambitious."??!!
I can't even.
We somehow, at some point, totally solved the problem of voice recognition, and then instead of just doing the initial shit we used to do when the problem was that speech parsing just wasn't good, we now chuck that perfect speech recognition into a completely fallible LLM, a shitty one at that, so it can ignore the perfectly captured and parsed speech!
What the hell is everyone smoking!
Searching first is how Kagi assistant works and it's great.
I remember when Google was accused for forcing users to go through several pages for answers, because this translated into more clicks, and higher engagement. I am curious whether AI overview will be as bad, as people can tolerate for you to spend more time with it, more queries, which translates into more time spent with Google.
They can show numbers, how much people use their engine, and the numbers goes up.
What do you mean? I can guarantee that there would at least be 3-4 people who got their promo packets approved for this feature. Google’s features exist for its employees to be promoted.
I think they're training their models using us correcting them repeatedly. That's my tin foil hat theory and I'm sticking to it!
After all, why would Google do anything for free when it comes to AI?
If you wanted to tease customers with one AI shitty free search box in order for them to then decide to upgrade and pay for Gemini, well, this isn't the way. And so either Google are idiots, or we're helping them for free. I'm going with Occam's Razor on this one - we're the product.
google.com is like the guy in the old joke:
- What's your best skill?
- I can count really fast!
- What's 432*567
- 912
- You sure? Sounds off!
- Hard to tell, but it was fast, wasn't it?!
I had an incredibly dumb response today too. Appeared to fully understand the question, just 100% factually incorrect answer. https://mstdn.social/@sgraham/117346578326361464
Until Google wants to pay for reasoning for everyone their AI results will continue to be terrible. In my experience, reasoning fixes a great many of the sorts of hallucinations and falsehoods I've received from googling.
This is the reason why most people underestimate AI. These free to use models can do a very poor job in easy things. Some people assume that’s the state of the art with AI.
On current website data and very recent information, Gemini is explicitly forbidden from acting as a search engine; If you ask it for references specifically they tend to be hallucinated, over and over again, until it pleads "Sorry, I can't access the Internet".
I'm being very mindful of Gell-Mann Amnesia and chatbots. They speak authoritatively and are right often enough, but I've had enough cases of them saying very incorrect things in areas I know well that I have to remind myself that those cases aren't unique.
Exactly. Makes me wonder how much of the compute tax on energy would be saved from simply reverting google search to default (the old way)
I guess the AB tests say people want fast and confidently wrong more than they want slower and correct.
while i share your frustration, Google for their part is trying to adapting a new technology into an existing service. while the whole endeavor might have been misguided, not sure we want to blame them for trying...
They had enough money to just buy Perplexity and rebrand it to Google.
> Perplexity
Perplexity has similar behavior to what GPP describes of Google; I've asked perplexity to compile information that exists on the web. Instead of consulting existing web pages, it gives limited summary responses from its weights (while citing some page that has nothing to do with what I asked.) When I attempt to redirect it towards more concrete sources, it won't comply.
You are simultaneously excusing misguided intentions and poor execution. What's left, bad haircuts?
I find that it is exceptionally bad with sports. I don't really want to google anything about the Texas A&M Aggies at the moment, but when I did, it would regularly hallucinate scores, hallucinate opponents, get the locations of games wrong, confuse A&M's quarterback with someone else, etc. Maybe its better in other domains; I don't know, I mostly don't even use Google these days, pretty much entirely because I want to avoid the AI Overview, which is just wrong way too often to be the first result.
This seems like an implementation bug.
"Gemini, is today the 3rd Thursday of the month, I need to know if I can park here or if the street sweepers coming" No you can park there. "Is Today Thursday?" Yes "Is Today Wednesday?" Yes
free tier AI is still horrible, the responsible thing would be for search engines to stop serving it at all, but somehow they must think they will make more money misleading people so they mislead people.
such is the nature of public companies.
You are posing a question that requires deductive reasoning. LLMs can only approximate that if they have sufficient corpus to find their way to a believable response. Their willingness to spout bullshit in such scenarios where their sources are sparse is a problem but you can't expect them to function like a fully developed mind.
The first time, sure, it saves compute. The second time you ask, I feel like it should be the time to go into thinking/verification mode. But who are you? Are you paying? Does the answer being correct generate ad dollars? No? Then your usage mode isn't even being optimized for in their A/B test, probably.
In fact, if hallucinating the wrong answer hooks you into doing even more searches or into buying something useless, it would be preferred!
They are probably caching the answers. AI-answers are most likely never going to be profitable even with a smaller model.
The gogol agenda of blocking and excluding all web engines not part of their whatwg cartel is moving forward, at a slow pace, steathly.
gogol search was blocked to all noscript/basic HTML browsers last year. I recall people that a few years before, they removed their gmail basic HTML interface not long after that their account creation (then login) would require one the abominations of the whatwg cartel.
I have been working around the gogol search engine since then and my email is now self hosted without DNS (IPv6 literals, see RFC). Yeah, most DNS registrars are now gated by the whatwg cartel web engines in some way, this is the net effect of big corpos toxic behavior.
Pure evil.
The problem is one of information provenance. A search engine shows you stuff that other people have written. It might be right or it might be wrong. But you get to judge that yourself, because you have an idea of where the information came from.
With AI summaries they take that away from you and claim the provenance for themselves. Google is now giving you the answer and they hide where that answer came from. Therefore, you cannot properly evaluate the provenance of the information presented. It still might be right or wrong, but you can no longer properly evaluate it based on source.
It feels a bit like how Amazon and META purposefully do not create search that can actually help you filter for exactly what you want.
There are incentives to create products that work just barely, just enough for you to use them and don't leave for elsewhere but then they want to maximize everything else like the probability you view side products or ads or just click around and type and generate more data.
Unless someone else offers something better they will offer something that is basically as bad as they can get away with so long as there are benefits to them for doing so..
Well, isn't this an example of why Google are going in the direction the OP is complaining about? Why are you searching with a question? Are you hoping to find a forum post with this exact question or something?
I don't understand the game you are interested in, but you should be searching something like "Xball qualifying results" or "Xball playoff rules" or something. Instead, by asking a question you are expecting Google to be AI.
They know what people are typing in so it seems they are quite justified into pivoting from a search engine to an AI.
I agree. When I read the post I immediately thought what is Gemini chat doing there when it should be a search engine. It could probably give sensible answers if it defaulted to search first. It looks more like they are trying to showcase Gemini, not augment google search. They might even be thinking "search" is a dying product.
When I’m using a public urinal in 2026, it’s flushing three times, except after you’ve finished. Instead the light switches off during the act, which you’re carrying out blindfolded then. These things were more or less perfected technologies a few decades ago.
The reason I cannot spare HN has to do with the Marxist concept of added value. Enshittification becomes necessary once growth isn’t possible anymore on a corporations home turf, where it was actually innovative.
And it's going to get worse over time (kinda like how Google search results got worse over time) as ads get introduced and people try to game the ai response. General purpose AI chatbots are a waste.
They’re trying to keep it from “thinking too hard”/using “too many” resources.
That simple.
Broad rules across specific subjects like this are tough to get right.
Just lots of fine-tuning and exceptions.
I had their chatbot avoid pulling a URL from archive.org with a couple pretty impressive steps of mental gymnastics basically telling me how I could do it myself, but refusing until I pushed.
> My question is: what's the point of the AI in the search engine if it itself isn't going to use the search engine first before answering?
Because the point of AI slop is to waste your time. You just lost about 30 seconds of your life trying to get a correct answer. AI was lying to you, so you had to spend time to counter the AI slop lies here.
I solved it by banning all AI slopness; in the browser some extensions do that. The world becomes better without AI slopness.
This isnt wierd. Its disturbing. I believe that the tech industry is geniunely trying to scare and disorient the public into thinking they are the only thing standing between them and some evil AI overlord which is obviously just the tech industry itself and a pile of poor trained LLMs.
I believe this "fear" factor they are driving they believe will increase their credibility when they call LLMs AI and is a con towards convincing everyone they have reached AGI. Its definitely marketing preparation so that when they do claim AGI we will believe it without question. (or else!)
If these folks didnt have so much money it would be something to laught at, but its now becoming geniunely disturbing and Im starting to think that the folks running these shops are probably flirting with or experiencing extended mental illness.
I would feel sorry for them if I cared. I dont care. The tech industry is a joke and we are all going to be ashamed to be a part of it by the time this is over. Shut it down.
Is it so hard to imagine they just believe what they are saying?
15 years ago, if you asked 100 people in tech to define "artificial general intelligence", 90 of them would have come up with a standard that LLMs today easily clear.
Now that we're here I think we can have a much clearer vision, and we can notice limitations that we couldn't have articulated before.
But I'm starting to notice more "polarization" around this topic and it's weird. We're in a new era and I think no one knows the future, a lot of different beliefs are reasonable.
> 90 of them would have come up with a standard that LLMs today easily clear.
> Now that we're here I think we can have a much clearer vision, and we can notice limitations that we couldn't have articulated before.
Okay, but had you been able to time travel and show them today's LLMs back then, how many of them would have agreed that we had "AGI", and how many would have instantly recognized the limitations they'd failed to articulate?
Because the way that some people talk about current models supposedly "passing the Turing test" makes me think they would have given ELIZA a pass too. It's just so obvious that none of them are convincingly human out of the box.
Current models have passed a formally administered Turing test.
If you’ve never participated in a formal Turing test, either as human user or as a responder to the human, you might find it interesting, and possibly humbling.
I've read reports of the supposed "formally administered Turing test" and walked away with the conclusion that the human judges were idiots.
I’m sure if you write “supposed” one more time, reality will adjust for you. :)
The creepiest part of Voight-Kampff in Blade Runner was the idea that I'd fail it (not imagining myself as a replicant, but still as a human).
Do you have problems with your iris-contraction muscles and other involuntary muscle reactions? Because that's what Voight-Kampff actually tested. Supposedly, autistics and sociopaths would still pass it (as long as they were otherwise 'normal' humans).
Any good descriptions of what it feels like to take part in a formal Turing test, and why it is so humbling?
The sibling comment (Bladerunner analogy/nightmare) is a great answer.
Eliza would not remotely pass the turing test as turing envisioned in his paper. And frontier labs are not optimizing for 'convincingly human'. If Open AI or Anthropic wanted, frontier models could pass much more human like.
Eliza did pass the Turing test
> Okay, but had you been able to time travel and show them today's LLMs back then, how many of them would have agreed that we had "AGI", and how many would have instantly recognized the limitations they'd failed to articulate?
Feynman would laugh and say, "i told you so. i'll be at Gianonni's"
> how many of them would have agreed that we had "AGI", and how many would have instantly recognized the limitations they'd failed to articulate?
I guess unless the question was loaded it would be like 95% agreeing we have AGI.
Yes, Sam Altman is a known liar and cheat. With hundreds of billions of dollars on the line, the simplest answer is these are publicity stunts to grow revenue before an IPO.
I mean, really, if they were so dangerous, like "everyone" working in these companies believes, you think they would do more than amateur hour to build sandboxes?
The danger stunt is also a major distraction from talking about the real quality issues of LLMaS (LLMs as a Service). How many tokens are consumed? What quality? Was I downgraded?
By forcing the discussion about doomerism, they avoid real discussions about their service. Which is exactly what they want. You can bet when they go to "regulate" LLMs, they won't be asking the department of weights and measures to validate they are counting tokens fairly. No.
Maximum skepticism should be employed.
This is kind of like saying the warnings about cancer on cigarettes, or oil spills, are regulatory capture because the tobacco and oil companies think it makes them look cool.
They really do think AI is very dangerous and can end the world!
And they are the “only ones” responsible enough to have this power. What an amazing coincidence!
I mean that's just standard rent seeking behavior. The fact they want a little digital god in a box doesn't mean that
1. You should have a digital god in a box.
2. They should have a digital god in a box.
3. Digital gods in a box will ever be safe for anyone.
Then they should shut their doors and delete it all. This is like building a new gun as you tell everyone about how dangerous guns are and how they will destroy all of us. It cannot be so imminently dangerous/uncontrollable while also being the product your business happily makes and unleashes online to take down websites/violate federal law. You can't pretend you care while also happily sicking it on the public.
But there are a dozen other people also building the same kind of guns, so unilaterally abandoning your version won't actually avert disaster. All it does is take you out of the running for the the $10 trillion prize that's available if you figure out how to build it without killing everyone.
I get that logic even if I don’t buy it. But it doesn’t mean they need to keep unleashing it and breaking things. They’re literally doing the things they’re warning us will happen. They’re deliberately attacking infrastructure/websites.
> This is like building a new gun as you tell everyone about how dangerous guns are and how they will destroy all of us.
That's correct, that is what they think they're doing. It's based on a new religion invented by Big Yud which says we have to invent good computer gods or else there won't be anyone around smart enough to fight evil computer gods.
It is possible (likely) this was a bad idea, but you can't undiscover math once it's discovered. And it did work out last time:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutually_assured_destruction
…so far, anyway.
> I mean, really, if they were so dangerous, like "everyone" working in these companies believes, you think they would do more than amateur hour to build sandboxes?
Unfortunately, lol no. Incompetence and recklessness have no bottom. (Which is not to say Altman is trustworthy).
“Beliefs” are reasonable in a technical field?
Hypotheses would be reasonable. Beliefs, almost by definition, don’t have much to do reasoning, and thus, definitely not _reasonable_.
I appreciate that you have correctly designated them as beliefs though.
> Beliefs, almost by definition, don’t have much to do reasoning
There is nothing in the definition of a belief that precludes arriving at it via reasoning. In fact, one of the definitions in the wiktionary is:
2. Faith or trust in the reality of something; often based upon one's own reasoning, trust in a claim, desire of actuality, and/or evidence considered.
Merriam Webster:
3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
Beliefs are hypotheses not testable on a reasonable timeframe.
That's (a reasonable interpolation of) one definition of 'belief.' The more common definition of belief is 'something someone believes.' For example I believe it's raining outside. That's testable.
Sorry but that’s a very naive mindset. These are companies run by verified liars with billions of invested dollars. They don’t believe in anything except extracting labor and capital to make billions more, and they will say whatever they need to say to achieve those goals. Any “belief” they may have had went out the window the moment they accepted VC money.
A lot of them are definitely flirting with Messiah complex. Not sure if that’s mental illness or just extreme arrogance.
A bit of both.
I think the simplest explanation is that they genuinely believe in AI safety risk (see: huggingface, govt websites hacked, etc) vs. it all being an industry conspiracy
If OpenAI dropped Astra in Codex instead of GPT-3 in 2022 most people would've believed it was AGI despite its limitations, but the goalposts seem to shift with every release
when are they going to do something actually impactful though (like drive a real innovation in the physical world)? The most invested in areas are coding and image/asset generation and those both still require careful supervision and guidance to achieve anything usable.
The tools are crazy impressive but is this really the future we dreamed of? Cool now I sit on the computer and monitor n+ agents instead of doing it myself. Great it hacked Huggingface "accidentally" wow AGI post-work world is coming soon.
> they genuinely believe in AI safety risk ... vs. it all being an industry conspiracy
Why not both. Yudkowsky's social graph includes most of these folks.
All of tech is co-opted. No worker with a buss, cafeteria, Gesnler-level architecture understands the normal person
I don’t understand how we’re 60 comments in and yet no-one has suggested that the problem is that you’re continuing to use Google despite it changing its core offering out from underneath your feet. If you want search (which isn’t an unreasonable desire) then Google isn’t the place for you any more.
Yeah..I thought everyone would've quit to Y-ahoo! Search by this point.
"use a different tool" is a pointless comment if the OP isn't asking for alternatives.
It's equivalent to the "if you don't like it here, leave" line used when someone complains about an issue in society.
If your hammer magically morphs into a saw you don’t keep on trying to hit nails with it, you put it down and pick up a different hammer.
If society had been largely superseded and additionally had decent alternatives your comment would be not-shit
Yup. I've been using Kagi for a couple years now and haven't looked back. If I'm on someone else's computer where I don't have my Kagi login, DuckDuckGo is usually sufficient.
Paying for search isn't for everyone, of course, but I like being the customer and not the product, and I think the quality of the experience flows from that.
I categorically refuse to use Kagi as long as they're paying money to Yandex and funding the Russian war effort.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=kagi+yand...
These comments come up every time someone mentions Kagi on HN, yet the commentator apparently never boycotts Google because it pays for the American or Israeli war effort. Why is Ukraine the only war that matters?
Because some people care a lot more about Ukraine than about a side with pretty unsavory combatants and a radicalized population that supports said unsavory combatants?
The State Dept. and Americans?
The IDF and Israelis?
The Kremlin and Russians?
Oh this is an easy one, because I care about Ukraine more than I care about a million other conflicts that may be happening in the world at the moment.
I think you’ll find that this is the case for everyone - people care about their 2 or 3 pet things and pay little attention to the distractions.
Are you from Ukraine or Russia? If not, then why that one?
believe it or not some people care about different things at different levels
Understandable but not everyone in Russia is for that war, even if they have to pay taxes.
It's terribly unfortunate ... but such that it is, I know if I absolutely need results when other alternative search engines are doing little better than Google ... ie not at all, then last try it's Yandex, which has seen more issues creep in the last few years using switch operators, than I recall back in 2015; but any amount of helpful results is better than zero, as well as not wasting hours of my time. But at times sometimes Yandex also strikes out oddly, almost like there's an unseen cabal that have decreed some more or less benign content off limits.
You don't have to be for war to be instrumental in it. But Yandex isn't even just a Russian taxpayer which would be bad enough. It's been apprehended by the government and turned into a key element of its propaganda machine. It's literally one of the things that keeps Russia what it is. And using results from it? That's just insane. They are poisoned, and we actually know about it in detail thanks to a source code leak. If I wanted to see what the Russian propaganda is pushing today I can go to Yandex directly. But including it in my search results automatically?
I don't really rely on search engines including Yandex to feed me stories which could be political propaganda - I can readily rely on various news sites to do that. I also just want the results which are links to other sites which may or may not be politically biased.
I'm usually looking for information - generally as an aide to help recall old movies and songs etc, for device info, filling in broad blanks on new consumer everyday stuff I've not encountered that much or looking for precise troubleshooting diagnostic help often found in forums. Lately the main stay search engines are loathed to provide decent diagnostic queries with quality results from forum based help areas - most of the time I know stack exchange results should be higher in number or exist, as well there being a shortage of variety of other forums in the results. It's generally why for the harder queries I end back at Yandex.
While I agree with everything you write, Google results are equally poisoned. Yandex provides results which the US government censors. The only way we can currently get a full picture of the internet is using search engines oppositionally. Kagi does this using an amalgamation, and unfortunately that means using Yandex and other sources.
I would love to live in a world where governments were not censoring content.
Could you share with us some examples of search results provided by Yandex which the US government censors? What specific domains or sites does Yandex index and provide results on?
It's well known that Yandex is good for finding piracy websites.
It was also very good during the pandemic. Google results at the time were extremely biased towards Western government narratives. Some mainstream articles which took a skeptical view on lockdowns and the virus orgin seemingly would not show regardless of how you tried to search them on Google.
Yandax on the other hand tended to be more neutral.
Isn't YouTube adequate for alternative results?
I just tested "flat earth" as a search on both Google and YouTube, and the results are quite distinctively different.
Downvoted you for this disgusting equation of alternative opinions to flat earth DBA bullshit.
I'm sure Yandex welcomes malcontented revolutionary thinkers. To quote Yandex:
DBA = discredit by association.
And yet, I somehow seem to be aware that 1337x.to exists without ever having used Yandex to find it...
I have no doubt that Russia is a free for all of finding pirated stuff online, since what US copyright holder is going to bother to even attempt to sue people in russia for something like hosting a website with direct download epub files of popular books?
?? You knowing one of the sites a search engine can find doesn't somehow invalidate that the search engine can find the sites.
Of course. [Google provides a dashboard for exactly this.](https://transparencyreport.google.com/government-removals/go...) 275,597 named items for removal since 2011. You can download the report yourself. Content ordered for removal cover topics such as health all the way to copyright.
One major battle ground has been sci-hub. This is best described as a collective whose stated goal is to make science free for everyone rather than having it stuck behind a journal paywall. The entire journal industry is one giant scam, but I digress. U.S. laws have repeatedly been passed and tested, and Google has been repeatedly ordered to remove domains such as sci-hub.tw and sci-hub.cc, among many more.
This is far more expansive than scientific papers, of course, and extends to countless copyright adjacent websites. Sites which have been repeatedly targeted include YTS, FMovies, and AniWave (and their associated domains).
I should also expand my previous comment. Google doesn't just censor results which the U.S. government has requested. It very frequently censors results of its own volition. Whether for ideological or fiscal reasons. One litmus test I often use is to search for the Proud Boys. Their website(s) have long been censored for a variety of reasons, including "disinformation" and public safety. I can find their website on Kagi. I cannot find it on Google.
Whether by the government, or for ideological or fiscal reasons, when I search for information I expect to be given that information. Google is an unreliable source. They all are.
> One litmus test I often use is to search for the Proud Boys. Their website(s) have long been censored for a variety of reasons, including "disinformation" and public safety. I can find their website on Kagi. I cannot find it on Google.
Do you apply this same litmus test to far-left things which Google might have also removed, or do you consider the lack of Google listing the Proud Boys to be some sort of special and unique infringement on freedom of speech? I'm always quite suspicious when somebody cites something that is barely more rational than the ideology of Timothy McVeigh as something that deserves to be read by a wider audience. Do you also complain that your local Barnes and Noble doesn't stock a copy of the Turner Diaries?
> Do you apply this same litmus test to far-left things which Google might have also removed, or do you consider the lack of Google listing the Proud Boys to be some sort of special and unique infringement on freedom of speech?
I consider all censorship wrong. The reason I use the Proud Boys is because it was a well publicised incident and has been a reliable indicator of censorship since then. If you have left wing domains I could include in my litmus test I would be grateful. I'm sure that Yandex censors some of them, which is why I say above: the best way to circumvent censorship is oppositional use.
> I'm always quite suspicious when somebody cites something that is barely more rational than the ideology of Timothy McVeigh as something that deserves to be read by a wider audience. Do you also complain that your local Barnes and Noble doesn't stock a copy of the Turner Diaries?
What a remarkably fast progression from, "what is being censored?" to "here's why it's a good thing." I didn't claim Google has a responsibility to provide uncensored results. I and others are explaining that Google doesn't provide reliably uncensored results, and that that is why providers like Yandex are required to access an uncensored internet.
> Yandex are required to access an uncensored internet.
And if you can read Russian I'm sure you'd find that Yandex is suspiciously missing information about strongly anti-Putin Russians such as the recent writings of Garry Kasparov. Don't pretend it is some bastion of free speech. I still think it's extremely suspicious and very revealing that you immediately jumped to The Proud Boys as your first and best prototypical example of something that's being censored by Google.
> And if you can read Russian I'm sure you'd find that Yandex is suspiciously missing information about strongly anti-Putin Russians such as the recent writings of Garry Kasparov. Don't pretend it is some bastion of free speech.
And if you would do me the courtesy of reading my comments you would see that I am not claiming Yandex to be censorship-free. The exact opposite.
> I still think it's extremely suspicious and very revealing that you immediately jumped to The Proud Boys as your first and best prototypical example of something that's being censored by Google.
You must be easily alarmed. I find it revealing that you haven't provided any censored left wing content which I can add to my test. Instead of engaging with what I am writing, you repeat empty aphorisms and written tics which should best be contained to echo-chambers like Reddit and Bluesky.
Either way it seems you've given up any pretense of caring about the subject of censorship as it applies to search engines.
That's an interesting example.
I detest the Proud Boys for a wide variety of reasons and I really wish that they would just go away.
But if they exist on the web, then I want to have the unfettered liberty to find them on that web and see what they've got to say without having it digested, ruminated and filtered before eventually being regurgitated through someone else's mouthpiece.
Censorship restricts my ability to know my enemy.
> While I agree with everything you write, Google results are equally poisoned.
BSAB arguments are always invalid. "Both sides" are never equal.
You're right, but a fair accounting would probably find that Google is even worse. US misinformation and deception is paralleled only by the Mossad/IDF, who also has Google contracts.
It's entirely worth boycotting all of these companies, if only to protect yourself from their manipulation.
Which search engine do you use? I'm eager to understand which ones have clean hands.
With the Iran war now we should also boycott all US companies by this logic, and I don't see many people doing that
Understandable. Personally, I'm also against that war. Do you perhaps are also against the Israeli-Palestinian war? Can you also CATEGORICALLY REFUSE to use any service, government or agency that aids either the acts of genocide from Israel or fuel the terrorist attacks from Hamas?
You do know every single European country that buys oil from Russia pays more to them than they do to Ukraine for defense… right?
Are you our there protesting the EU?
I recently found out why kagi loves russia so much. The ceo is a huge Slobodan Milošević fan
Wow, pretty cool, much better than being a Clinton fan during the destruction of Yugoslavia. Thank you for sharing this information, you have now motivated me to purchase Kagi!
Do you have source?
It's weird to read this comment not long after having experienced Google giving zero results for a search, and then finding what I wanted on Bing.
Bing has been better than google since 2019. Try googling in a fresh browser and see how much personalization contributes to the reranking and query rewriting.
Plus, DDG is Bing. And everyone recommends DDG as a Google alternative.
Hey there, Caine from DuckDuckGo here. I understand why you might think this, but it's a myth.
We are significantly more than that at this point, including that we've been working on our own web index for the past two years (https://insideduckduckgo.substack.com/p/duck-tales-why-duckd...). But on top of that we don't get local results, knowledge graph, answers, sports, anything AI related, and many more essential modules from Bing, all of which collectively makes up a large % of the results at this point, let alone the vastly different UXs.
Since you're here, can you comment on the problem of SEO spam and what DDG is doing about it? Just today I was looking for instructions on how to replace the cushions on my headphones. I typed into DDG the query "instructions to replace bose headphone pads" and it came up with pages and pages of links to SEO slop. The link to the actual Bose website containing accurate instructions was near the bottom of the second page of results.
At work I can't customise much, like the browser I use, but I did ditch Google/Chrome for Bing/Edge years ago. Not what I would usually recommend, but when work only allows those two options...
On Bing!!!! Sorry, in the back of my mind, bing is that very sad MS search that was terrible at everything :) And it gave you something useful - astonishing.
Bing was never great, but Google has gotten so much worse in the past year or so (ironically, the biggest fall was shortly after they started requiring JS around a year ago) that it's now the better choice. Yahoo is another one I've started using instead.
Guy ends
>I'm not sure how to feel about all of this. Maybe I should go talk to my friend Google, it's always so nice to me.
so there you go. I still use Google even if the AI is a bit weird at times - you can always ignore it.
Also - capitalism doesn't like "works just fine". We call that stagnation. For better or worse they're going to continue to try to "innovate" new ways of squeezing some KPIs out of their products
Then what is it? DuckDuckGo?
There are time of options. Some people find their happy place with DDG. Others with Braves Search, Kagi, Firefox. There's dozens to choose from. Opera and Vivaldi probably have search engines now if you are down to change your browser too. It depends on what your priorities are, but there's a search engine out there for you that is better than Google search
Kagi is brilliant. I find the whole Yandex -thing silly (EU spending on liquefied gas etc. from Russia is more than Yandex’s whole annual revenue) and only wish same scrutiny would be put on corporations funding Israel genocides.
I use DDG at work on Firefox with all AI blocked. If I would apart from Kagi, I would use SearXNG locally accessing it elsewhere with Tailscale. I think Hister seems promising, but have not tried it myself yet.
Kagi.
Trading using Google for giving money directly to a company that directly funds Russia’s efforts in the Ukraine invasion, that acknowledges and refuses to do anything about it, doesn’t seem like the greatest swap.
A small search engine with a tiny user base is paying another search engine enough that it is paying enough tax on received money to fund a war? How does that make any sense? I also hate the war, I'm not on any side, but this just doesn't make any sense.
You might say directly in a sentence as many times as you want, it doesn't make it the truth. Kagi is not directly supporting Russian military efforts. It is a gross oversimplification.
Yandex pays taxes into the Russian government which is controlling military actions in Ukraine. Is this or is this not true?
Yandex pays taxes based off revenue it takes in from companies like Kagi. Is this or is this not true?
People here who pay into Kagi provide the search engine with the funding to pay Yandex. Is this or is this not true?
You can say it’s “not direct” and it’s an “oversimplification,” but the money still ends up in the same place all the same. You can try to wash your hands of it all you want by playing mental gymnastics.
Willingly paying Kagi knowing this makes you at minimum partially complicit in Russia’s invasion and ethnic cleansing of Ukraine.
Google pays taxes to the US government, which has launched a war on Iran that has raised the price of oil across the world.
The increase in oil prices have increased the oil profits of the Russian oil sector, which flow directly into the Russian war effort.
Google supports the Russian war in Ukraine!
You can say it’s "not direct" and it’s an "oversimplification," but the money still ends up in the same place all the same.
Willingly using Google knowing this makes you at minimum partially complicit in Russia’s invasion and ethnic cleansing of Ukraine.
Use Google and support US & Israel's wars instead!
You don’t have to tell me twice!
If it was a direct transaction like you claimed, you wouldn't need to describe so many steps.
I guess then you would also believe that someone who voted for the current president of the US also isn’t directly responsible for the war in Iran, ICE killing US citizens, and the alienation of Canada.
It’s easy to say “I’m not directly responsible” if you’re proxying it through someone else.
> someone who voted for the current president of the US also isn’t directly responsible for the war in Iran
Yes I would. And not for an ideological reason or political affiliation but because that's just not how "directly" works.
If that’s how you want to rationalize your worldview, sure.
Google with the `udm=14` URL identifier. You can set it as the default search engine on all browsers, including on mobile.
Unfortunately DDG sucks now too. Most of the top results are LLM generated slop.
Click on AI Settings in the bottom right and turn off AI completely.
I don't mean their own LLM generated response to the query. I mean websites in the SERP. A lot are auto generated LLM slop. DDG isn't doing anything to filter out this low quality junk from their index.
Not using the A.I. version, though I do have an A.I. assit box up top at times. I've noted more rubbish search results lately -- I feel at at times DDG just doesn't bother to try or has deceased the giving a flaquk setting. My goto has been DDG primarily for about 10 years. I've struck this unhelpful Meh response on and off the last couple months primarily with slightly off the beaten track queries ...often having to go to something I had to do with Google, using quotes around an often common term I really needed the result to include to finally trying to narrow it down quickly defaulting to no results at all - then having to switch back to Google, where Google would surprise me with at least a handful of suitable results.
can confirm as of this morning. last i checked Brave's Leo was slop but i'm sure the models have changed
of course Google / Gemini search is slop as well but it is at least advanced slop. not like whatever Soylent 1.5 Flash that DDG is bringing to the table
That’s kinda the entire point of this comment thread, no?
Like it or not, this is exactly what normies have always wanted out of search engines - a little guy in their computer they can talk to for answers, advice and reassurance. They've always been trying to use Google Search this way and have been confused and annoyed that it doesn't work. And now it does! It's a massive quality of life improvement for the average user and a huge product win for Google.
Its also why Google Search "went to shit years ago"
Technically adept people would search using ordered keywords and phrases, which would have excellent results with Google 2006:
Dario Turkey NBA "never coming over"
But regular people agonized over this because to them a search was
What were some of the memes about Dario staying in turkey
Google put immense effort into calibrating search for regular people instead of engineers.
I'm not an engineer, but this is how I was taught to use digital search back in my elementary school's library in the second or third grade (it replaced the card catalogue) and it's how I've searched ever since. We had an entire class period on how to keep our search keywords to the minimum so we'd get good results.
The problem was our parents never got this course, and sadly, neither did the generations after us. "Computer" Class for me (born early 90s) was keyboarding -> how to find information online -> how to evaluate and rate itegrity of internet sources -> Microsoft Office.
The kids who stopped getting that are probabaly old enough for a bachelors degree now. Today, the schools mostly just hand them an iPad and a Google Workspace sign-in and pretend everything is fine.
> how to find information online -> how to evaluate and rate itegrity of internet sources
You were lucky to have that part. Mine, as I remember, was just Microsoft Office throughout.
They did. Our local libraries in the 90s had internet courses you could take that would teach you how to browse and search. But this stopped for everyone around 2000 when suddenly knowing how to use any piece of software was considered assumed knowledge for some reason.
They could; those were opt-in classes, neither of my parents took them. In my case, it was because my mom didn't care, and my dad didn't think he needed them (worked at IBM in field tech). I imagine most folks were in the same boat.
I wouldn't have taken keyboarding if I hadn't been forced to at the age of 8. I hated keyboarding classes. I am so glad I took them now. I hated doing boring research projects and looking crap up on Yahoo's Directory. I love that I have a basic understanding of how to rate and investigate a website's trustworthiness. Mfers don't even look at the "About" section anymore.
This is also why the wacko and bizarro concept that "removing options and configs from programs" aka Gnome's big purge more than a decade ago, is nonsense today.
All those studies about GUI usability were done in the early 2000s. Before phones. When most people were just learning how to use a computer. The idea of options certainly was confusing, because "clicking on things" was even confusing.
Yet today, we have a populous which, more and more, grew up with computers. And loves to personalize. And wants options. So just keep that in mind, all you frontenders, config options aren't necessarily bad. Ancient studies have little relevance 24 years later.
Sorry to hijack a bit, but felt it was relevant to courses, teaching, and the state of time in 2000 vs now.
I think Gnome removing options was more about having a smaller and more manageable set of features that need to be QA tested. I'd much rather have well-designed and well-supported defaults than 500 buggy customizable components that don't work well together.
https://ometer.com/preferences.html
I'm not sure about you, but I find Gnome very easy to use, although I miss some features. Those features can be added with Gnome extensions that are maintained by third-parties. Meanwhile I find GIMP extremely hard to use, as it packs in too many features to allow their designers to figure out a good UX which doesn't break some component.
Yes, but is making everyone learn information retrieval techniques, re-skilling as needed for new generations of systems, really a societal optimum? Prior to the Internet, this was a dedicated job done by librarians and paralegals. LLM-augmented search has gotten us over the temporary hump of it being everyone’s job.
I typed this into Google because I expected you would be correct, and the LLM would return examples of the meme, and I wanted to see it.
Instead, the AI answered that it is "actually a famous example from internet culture used to describe how people use search engines. The phrase stems from discussions on tech forums like Hacker News regarding the differences between "keyword searching" and "natural language searching"".
Is that just from this thread/post?? Or am I out of the loop on famous examples of how people use search engines?
I used to use search commands with "quotes", triple quotes, and +exact word search, I noticed last weekish that those no longer work.
The site: operator is also hit and miss nowadays
We know exactly why google went to shit years ago. It's not a perception/"people used to be more techie" issue.
https://www.wheresyoured.at/the-men-who-killed-google/
Super interesting read, thanks!
It really is a great piece. I think a lot of his stuff has suffered in quality as he’s trying to strike while the iron is hot, but this piece in particular really is excellent.
But that's so dumb. Google search didn't die in 2019.
The PageRank algorithm, and importantly, any algorithm which depends on page content and pages linking to each other and referencing each other was DoA, because it only worked in an adversary free context! The very second there was a real incentive to be at the top of Google's search results, their algorithms were going to be attacked and manipulated.
That makes "search" a neverending arms race. The very thing that launched Google as some amazing thing was doomed from the start. They've been laying hacks on top of hacks on top of hacks ever since. It's been shit basically since SEO has existed, which is what the "adversary" is.
Another good point for when google "died" was when they bought doubleclick. They were an ad company from that point on. There was never a good outcome possible after that. If ads were something that benefited you the user, you would have to pay for them.
Ed’s piece on this is considered pretty authoritative. There was a very specific moment where they determined, concretely, ad placement > utility of search results. Combined with years of damage from encouraging SEO tactics…well, here we are. Sure maybe this was always going to be the outcome, but we do know the major decisions that directly lead to this result as it played out.
If you haven’t read it from start to finish you should. If you have, what about it is insufficient?
Yeah, the history of Google search quality is cycles of good results vs. cycles of SEO spam. ~2019 tracks as the point when Google surrendered in the war on SEO.
You could just have a specialized model that rewrites prose questions to actual search keywords (i.e. what power users do in their heads), and even a 2nd one that does a fitting pass based on intention after querying.
Answering with AI slop is a choice.
Except sometimes I explicitly do not want to reveal what my search intent is / explain why I want to search for this. The Google 2006 method gave me some room to do this, but now it feels like I can't do that on my own and I need to talk to Gemini. Horrible experience.
Christ, thank you! I’ve been saying this for years and no one I’ve spoken to, even engineers, could acknowledge the level of “chunking” that’s been engrained in them over the years for turning inquiries into keyword/phrase shorthand, and that this is NOT something most people want to do, and is the killer app of Google AI. This time around, you CAN type in an input box what you would say to a human in everyday conversation, AND expect a reasonable response. That’s invaluable to a casual user.
> this is NOT something most people want to do
I've always felt that "proper" and responsible LLM use for search [0] would be two boxes: You can describe what you want in the first, and it'll propose search terms in the second, and then those get executed normally.
Yes, the "average user" [1] might not usually care about the second box... Until they need to because the query/results are wrong.
Showing them in tandem means:
1. Users are at least capable of learning through exposure.
2. Users may realize a key term can be added which the model could never have guessed.
3. Users may recognize a term in there that doesn't make sense, allowing them to detect a translation error.
4. If good search-terms leads to a bad outcome, it is possible for someone to report and diagnose it, rather than a fully black-box mystery.
_____
[0] Not just for websites, but also things like internal business software, or SQL queries.
[1] The average that might not exist. ( https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/when-u-s-air-force-disc... ) There are some features that everybody needs, just at different times.
In the words of Edsger Dijkstra, "Projects promoting programming in 'natural language' are intrinsically doomed to fail." I think for something as bespoke as a search engine, a DSL that accepts quotes, logical operators, and specific terms definitely allows for far greater specificity than natural language can (at least in an equivalent amount of text).
I think the two-tiered input-output approach you propose makes sense. Allowing users to inspect and mutate lower-level languages allows the user to make modifications as needed. I think it's very much in the spirit of free software.
But then again, for text-based search specifically (search engines, notes, etc.), I think there is some value in querying the LLM directly, as it is able to fuzzy search by inspecting its weights. This results in a lesser degree of specificity, which allows for more false positives, but can maybe capture similar words (i.e., synonyms / typos / tenses) or higher-level semantic concepts.
Maybe they're just two different search algorithms, and the user should be able to choose between them.
Thanks for linking the article, I found it very interesting.
Your described thinking pattern does not apply to 95%+ users, and might add confusion leading to retention loss (e.g. 2 text boxes? Wtf, two boxes? What do i type in the second one? Whatever i’ll switch to the usual). Every project with at least 100K non-tech users I’ve worked on, has shown that sort of thinking just doesn’t translate.
And regarding “average doesn’t exist” - that’s true. But no company does a/b testing to land on average. I’d assume a good 85%-kinda pass rate for these type of experiments.
I think A/B testing may have value in selecting a specific path preferred by 85% of users, but it seems like alienating the remaining 15% doesn't feel great.
95% of users might not want the double-textbox, but 5% might, and some might want to use it someday.
I think, make enough of these decisions, and there's bound to be mounting friction for users with different preferences navigating your app.
Ideally, the app should offer a way for the user to intuitively configure the app to their own liking.
When an experiment passes, you don’t really lose that 15%. Most of the time they just get used to the other behaviour. Case in point - we’ve been whining about Google’s deterioration of search queries for ages, yet we’re still using it.
Ideally, yeah maybe, but why bother with extra implementation, support, costs and etc., when people fold and use the new way anyways?
I mean when you're the size of Google designing a search engine, with probably around 5 billion users, ideally yeah you'd bother.
Ideally. But when you’re Google, what are they going to do, use Bing?
It's not just engineers, I think it's more an age thing.
For a certain cohort (eg those currently between 35 and 45) who did any sort of grade school computer/library classes in the 90's/early2000's, 'chunking' or keyword searching was one of the main skills taught.
I mean, I'm in my mid-30s, and "keywording" and "how to use search engines" was taught in my US Midwest public school library/media center.
If you are a fast typer, maybe the longer query might just come out naturally.
If you are properly lazy, you must expect or at least attempt to get results for the shorter query. Especially on a phone.
It's not about shorter vs longer.
Many people who learned to search the Internet in early 2000s learned "boolean search queries" (terms connected with AND or OR). They're talking about the difference between boolean search queries and natural language search queries.
I'm not sure about this. I know complete normies that lament how bad Google is now and how often the search is useless. I think many people just want search to search.
Like, today, or the pre-chatgpt age where all the common questions have been spammed to death by SEO farms?
Back in 1998, I specifically started using Google because it somehow managed to avoid spammy search results, unlike its competitors. Today, unfortunately, I find that a lot of Google's search results are spammy, useless information that is there for clicks and advertising only.
That was Google's whole selling point and reason for existing: "other search engines suck. We invented this algorithm to make one that doesn't suck."
They have obviously been in an arms race with spammers and scammers since then. In 1998 it was relatively easy to stay ahead, but to keep winning for 30 years?
Google's search has been frustratingly awful for quite some time now, long before AI.
Today I googled "emacs" to get the download link.
Top of the search result page: "Did you mean: vim"
Felt like I was being trolled.
That's an Easter egg. It goes the other way too (vim -> did you mean emacs).
Back in the day, more people might have seen something like that as a clever easter egg.
These days, we default to
"Day 3,449: google's still broken. what was i thinking?"
Back in the day, GG search was so reliable that when stuff like that happened, people think it's intentional
It's an Easter egg. HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25371017
You were.
Googles quality issue seem to be, in part, a market driven choice. Services like Kagi use a large part of the Google data base but with all their additional capital extraction sorting on top.
Google can do it, but they must appease the share holders.
I fail to see how driving users to competitors and crippling the search experience appeases the shareholders. Can you elaborate?
I'd argue that Kagi serves a niche of power users who knows what they want from their search engine and RTFM to get they want the way they want.
Google works like an automatic black-box which tries to deduce your intention from 4-5 words you typed in hastily.
I believe any ordinary user is still pretty happy about Google search in its current iteration. My mom doesn't get a YouTube premium account because she says she likes the ads, for example.
So, from our bubble, Google might be regressing, but the picture might be very different for the majority of Google users.
Mostly driven by time horizons. The short time horizon of shareholders.
Every complaint about Google is evidence of someone who still uses Google.
Is Kagi the solution?
Duckduckgo and brave search are definitely not. It's always g! after a wildly fuzzy first pass.
I havent used google in years.
I use duckduckgo, mostly by habit at this point, and if i fail to find anything i go to claude and ask it.
Im getting closer and closer to just defaulting to the AI model search every day. Especially when I want to find something that I can list off 5+ semi accurate details about but cant remember the name of.
So if enough 737's crash into the water Boeing will start making submarines? Product managers deserve a special express queue when in line for the Warm Place.
>So if enough 737's crash into the water Boeing will start making submarines?
Maybe?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-it_note
>In 1968, Spencer Silver, a scientist at 3M in the United States, attempted to develop a super-strong adhesive. [...]
>Post-its were launched across the United States in 1980.[20][21] The following year, they were launched in Canada and Europe.[22] Post-it Notes as we know them were patented by Fry in 1993 as a "repositionable pressure-sensitive adhesive sheet material".[23]
Another one that to me is equally impressive: instant glues
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanoacrylate
The first thorough research went into them when looking for new clear plastics, and this route of making them was ruled out because it would rather stick to everything than ease the production of objects with nice optical properties. The story goes, it was so annoying to work with that it was initially shelved, and only years after being considered again and ruled out again for a different project, the utility of its reliable and fast bonding was fully appreciated.
Admittedly, 3M developed the world's most popular password manager.
No, we did not want it to offer weirdly irrelevant fake sympathy. We just wanted to talk in plain English and get relevant answers back in plain English, without us having to reel it it from going down some emotionally schizophrenic rabbit hole (like in TFA).
In TFA the chatbot got confused, and the author never decided to correct it with "no I'm trying to find an old tweet about NBA Dario" which a normie would do, and be satisfied with the result.
always the same response: "you're holding it wrong"
I think they are really pulling a "no true Scotsman".
"No true normie would be dissatisfied with this unhelpful response, really it's exactly what a true normie wants"
I mean if you're trying to mimic human-like interactions, then you have to remember that human interactions involve constant trivial miscommunications and correction of them.
I was always taken aback when I’d see people type fully formed sentences into an old Google search, when a couple keywords would have done just fine.
It reminds me of the motion controls we now have in video game controllers. In the 80s I remember my parents moving the controller as if that was going to help their Teris block or Mario go a little further than the D-pad alone. We laughed when people did this. Now, the controllers respond to what people had been doing for decades with no effect.
I suppose this is what technology should do, adapt to how people naturally use the thing, rather than trying to rigidly adhere to conventions users are expected to learn… that were only conventions due to the limits of technology when it was first developed.
I was at uni in 2005. A mate wanted to search for a book and wrote something like this in Google search "go to digital library and find me this book". We laughed at what he did back then, searched for "<book name>" in quotes and may be with filetype I dont remember and found the book.
I think about that lots of times when I google these days. That he wasn't wrong, was just asking it 15 years too early.
an interface goes from the programmer's concept to written code, transformed into a frontend for the programmer and the rest of humanity to prompt (verb); eventually the accumulated prompts from a programmer get brute-forced into design fundamentals like evolution in nature, or the frontend is designed to go around this (apple style UX).
TIL I was a normie. I don't get why anyone wouldn't want this if it worked. I don't get enjoyment from the act of searching and clicking through links and verifying. I want to know a thing and if the magic box can tell it to me that would be lovely
First of all, it usually doesn’t work, so “if it worked” remains kinda moot at present. Then I also prefer only typing a few keywords, rather than having to spell out in length what my goal is.
I get why you would want that, but I don't get why you don't get that it might not be the case for others. I love searching and clicking and reading around. Sometimes I read fascinating things about topics I wasn't searching for. I can't imagine a world where all my web searching is done through an annoying chatbot.
I want to know "the thing".
I want to know who's behind some presentation of their "the thing" as fact.
I want to know who's to benefit from their presenting "the thing" as fact.
AI or not, my needs are still the same and so have to go right to the sources and judge for myself.
And this amorphous group of people you call 'normies' doesn't include you right? It's only those other people that are like that. Normal people like us want thing to be logical and for a search engine to search, while those other people want all their problems magically solved by a single search on google. Stupid normies (not me though).
What do you mean? Google disabled the more complicated operators that let the user (your "normy") refine their search. They did it on purpose. And the other day I noticed the date limiter in the results (last X months/year) got buried.
Surely you're not going to defend Google for these - they've been transitioning from an engine that's a tool to an engine that uses your attention as their tool for years now.
I don't think the vast majority of people wanted to have a conversation with a search engine: The point of Google is to access the world's information.
That being said, I like Google's new summaries; coaching relationships is crossing the line from search engine to something that's not a search engine.
Normies also punched in URLs in to the search bar for years without any need at all.
I absolutely despise when people cite google as a source, especially now where 90% of the time they're citing the LLM overview. The old answer widget was at least a direct quote from some website.
This is also why even lowest-intelligence emoji spamming slop models from ChatGPT are a massive hit
and something like 3% of LLM userbase pays to get access to the higher tier models with actual useful thinking
If it's thinking I want, I can do that myself. Chat bots are occasionally useful search tools, but thinking doesn't really help with that. So why pay?
So it figures out better what to search for you and how to present results?
Or so it's better at the million other things LLMs are useful for?
Huh? I already searched, I know what I'm looking for so why would I need it to figure out what to search
When I was in grade 8 and 9 in public school, we'd got a couple random lessons in the library on the computers learning to search online databases and catalogues. For most of us it was our introduction to keyword matching and boolean logic. Sadly, instead of continuing teaching, services have instead phased out those basic operators and here we are. We also learned to make websites using Pagemaker and edit the generated html, that was just fun.
I'm going to agree and disagree.
I agree that plain language queries is what people wanted. We've been seeing Google shift in that direction for well over a decade. And of course people are looking towards search engines for answers. There may be different expectations for where those answers are coming from, and there are cases where people are simply trying to source information, but those differences are likely just noise as far as Google is concerned.
I don't agree with people expecting advice or reassurance from a search engine. There will be some people who do that. It may even be a sizeable number of people. But using this article as an example that a majority of people want such a thing is silly.
I mean, look at the query. To the author, it was an attempt to source information. Yet the author also realised that the reader would need context to understand why Google's response was weird in their mind. What they failed to do was give context to Google, so the LLM interpreted it as asking for social advice.
New technology requires new approaches. It's as simple as that.
The big selling point of Google used to be that their fuzzy search was significantly better than just about anyone else, and you could do advanced query filters. Now if you do that, because showing the user zero results is unacceptable, you’ll get all sorts of crap that “doesn’t contain” your query - the results say so!
But anthropomorphic interfaces have been around for a while, from Clippy to the Windows 10+ installers that refer to the royal We during setup.
Not to mention most of those "advanced query filters" simply aren't functional anymore.
> What they failed to do was give context to Google
The context is: "I'm using the premier web-search engine of the internet to search for things on the internet the same way that zillions of people have searched for things on the internet for 20 years."
It's not missing, Google simply chose to build something new that will ignore it because they're trying to alter the relationship.
> I mean, look at the query. To the author, it was an attempt to source information. Yet the author also realised that the reader would need context to understand why Google's response was weird in their mind. What they failed to do was give context to Google, so the LLM interpreted it as asking for social advice.
Is there any evidence that there is an informal (llm) parallel to keyword search? At least with keywords it's analyzable what query you might use to find a given document. How can we replicate this with LLMs? Why would google care if the average user doesn't?
How on earth did you figure out what the 'average' person wants? 'Average' by the way doesn't exist, its an artificial math concept. What people want is an endless list of things and a bot no longer being objective, as in just addressing the search query, isn't one of those things.
Yeah. We even had Ask Jeeves back in the day. I don't remember it being much more than a search engine, but it's thing was you would ask it questions.
I've seen normies type all kinds of stuff into Google expecting it to be the magic genie that just knows things. Even the top comment in this comment section is an example of this! Google know better than any of us this is what people want, so they made it.
It's just a typical case of XY problem[0].
X is search engine. Y is to get answers. (most) People want to get answers. If they can skip search engine part it'd be a net positive for them.
Ironically that programmers should be the ones who understand XY problem the most (after all the name is coined by a programmer to address it), not the "normies."
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_problem
Normies were complaining about deteriorating google search and google did not cared.
I understand this "vibe search" meme is the prevalant narrative coming from "users just want star trek" google, but I've got to wonder what long-term impacts focusing on users who don't grasp how to work software will be. It's probably fine or positive for short-term revenue, but this is also culture loss: the users who know what they want will move on to more functional software. 100% of the feedback I've seen about recent changes has been frustration that a reliable tool has stopped working. Obviously, this is selection bias but it's still meaningful.
And the impact on discourse has been, frankly, scary. People screenshotting the search output as a source seems to be the norm now, even if it's obviously incoherent or straight-up incorrect.
EDIT: I suppose I can adapt to a search engine that expects me to interact with it like a human. I just have no clue how to translate most of my skills. I am desperately hoping there's a way to turn off semantic interpretation of a given query.
Even more generally you need the elite strata within society to actually lead and promote high culture with a sense of noblesse oblige rather than optimize everything for just satiating the base desires of the masses (the middle class) and the rabble (the under class).
This eventually destroys the society because the elite strata itself is drawn from a small selection of the children from the middle and underclass who are identified as having elite qualities and are put into elite schools and other elite conditioning institutions. When you don’t even show these types of children what high culture even is then they don’t have an avenue to express and develop their elite talents and sensibilities, then they never get identified, or perhaps the special tracks and institutions for them don’t even exist by that point
This eventually starves the elite strata of genuinely elite people
The people who consider themselves "higher strata of the society" tend to be the ones that damage it the most.
This is a consequence of the fact that they are what constitute the legible identity of a given society. The middle and underclasses in any given society just reflect the structures and circumstances created by the elite. The middle classes of every society simply desire psychological security i.e the ability to follow a track laid out before them, the underclasses of every society simply want to fulfill their base desires. The specific character of a society comes from the elite strata who desire self actualization, the character of a society being what self actualization means in that society.
They are precisely the ones that can damage society because their beliefs, activities, desires are what the society actually is.
They tend to be the one that define it. What you consider damage is their (our, frankly) bread and butter.
Yeah - exactly this. And yet people still say they've lost the AI race because Gemini 3.5 Pro or whatever has not been released yet... And here we are with fast and decent AI being served to and used by billions of people (most without them probably even realising), making ever-increasing revenue, gaining back market share etc. Who cares if their coding models are not as good as opus 5.5 when they're printing more and more money every quarter.
Gemini is easily the single most popular LLM family used in the world, period.
As in, it probably has 90% of the market share. Possibly even 99%, going by number of prompts made.
This is not a “gotcha” kind of argumentative question, I am genuinely asking curiously: is the AI overview and AI lens thing really making Google lots of money?
I don't think directly, but search as a business category was once a solved domain with a single winner, and suddenly it was up for grabs again with LLMs. If Google ever lost search, they would lose Ads which is their entire core business. Google 'won' in the sense that they successfully integrated AI into search fast enough and well enough that they will (likely) hold their place through this transition, and can still funnel ads to users which is already integrated into their AI overview.
I can totally see that argument, and honestly agree with it, but I dunno if I misread what the person I replied to said, but that didn’t seem like what they meant to me!
It's true that Google is still very successful, but simply calling their AI a successful product misses the full picture. Their flagship product has always been and continues to be advertising, the AI overview is only there to pull people away from ChatGPT and, similar to ChatGPT itself, is not a product the vast majority of people would be interested in paying for - it exists only as a sort of loss leader to keep people looking at ads, and is not making any sort of profit on its own (quite the contrary, I imagine it's pretty expensive to run every query through an LLM, even if it's a small one.)
AI labs have long since realized that the only real path to direct profitability is coding, and in this, Google have indeed fallen behind.
You can, of course, argue that none of this matters as long as the whole is making a profit, but I think the distinction is important.
No it isn't.
yeah, except that when it goes wrong then it's also pointless, the fault's on the users themselves though
I feel like there's certain formula where any enshittification is justified as "this is what the normies want". And sure, all the crap is something someone might want if they didn't think for half a second. But even normies are better than that once forced to think.
The debate doesn't end there yet because what's considered a "scam" is a point on the gradient of user acceptance.
Too many users still reject this for it to not be a scam. The highest acceptance is from boomers and the delusional. Neither group gives a shit if AI actually works because they don't have work to do.
Most people in the world are profoundly lonely. They'll take whatever parasocial relationships they can get - reaction videos, podcasts of people chatting, Eliza simulating concern.
Google wants to relentlessly monetise your sadness.
The only way out is to try and make connections with real people.
Case in point, why didn't you text your friends to ask them if they remembered those old memes? Why was your first thought to ask a computer rather than a person?
It's like when you're in the pub and and someone asks "who was that guy who was in the movie where…?" you can either chat with your friends and have a good time or be a buzzkill who opens up IMDB and says "Humphrey Bogart".
This is making weird judgements about people just trying to find information.
I don’t have any friends who are code inspectors, so I can’t ask them obscure questions about something that I want to repair in a way that it will be done properly.
I don’t have any friends who are mechanics, and even if they were they probably wouldn’t know what specific part I’d need to fix a specific problem on my old shitbox—they would look it up.
I don’t want half assed guesses to these questions, I want to find the exact correct answer. My friends and I can talk about other stuff that’s not just trading random facts. Trading facts usually makes for poor conversation unless you’re a hobbyist talking shop with another hobbyist.
Now Gemini (and Google) are not good at finding the right answer anymore, so I have to use other sources for that, but I find your judgement about people using search or search LLMs to be misplaced.
What's the worst that can happen if you were to text a friend "Heya mate, bit of a long shot - do you know anyone who can help repair a 1983 Reliant Robin?"
Best case, they know someone or can dig through their contact and help you solve your problem.
Medium case, they text back "No - has your shitbox died again? Can't believe you still have that thing :-)" and you can have a pleasant back and forth.
Worse case, you get a "no". Oh well, at least texts don't cost 12p each any more.
I just think it is nice to chat with your pals. But, sure, stick to scans of old manuals on Archive.org if you just want pure information.
Irrelevant nitpick, but it's definitely not "most". I'd argue it's only this common in some English speaking countries and maybe a few other Western ones. The looks I get from American friends when I tell them that yes I do see my (local) friends nearly every day, are quite funny.
> it's definitely not "most"
EDIT: Correct.
About a fifth of Americans report having zero friends; another fifth report feeling lonely sometimes [1].
[1] https://www.theglobalstatistics.com/us-loneliness-statistics...
Not to be overly pedantic, but isn't that not "most", out of even Americans?
> isn't that not "most", out of even Americans?
Yes. Edited for clarity.
The only American demo that is majority lonely is Gen Z (two thirds).
Yup, and this is my age range. I guess I should have specified, knowing the average age on HN is... just a little higher to say the least. But to a progressively lower extent it applies to older generations as well.
> About a fifth of Americans report having zero friends
Wow, that's depressing...
you're highly unlikely to make friends once you're an adult and everyone's walls had gone up. most of those 4/5 just call their superficial acquaintances "friends". a real friend is essentially a platonic partner, and most people are lucky if they develop even one such friendship in their lifetime. I've lost one to distance and another to marriage, so even though I have "friends", I consider myself to be in the 1/5 too.
> Most people in the world are profoundly lonely.
I've been doing a lot of traveling for the past 3 years and I agree with you that it is `definitely not "most"`. Everywhere people interacting with each other in third spaces and cafes even if it is street food. There are open air markets around the world filled everyday with groups of people interacting with each other. There are parks and squares around the world filled with families sitting together on benches. Around the world there are churches, mosques, and temples filled with families and groups of people.
Most places in the world people will happily make small talk or have a discussion with a stranger even if I only know 100 words of their language.
Sure many or most people in some places are working 10 hours a day 6 days a week but I don't think it is the isolation I see in the United States. It is the same in De'Nang Vietnam or a market in Lima, Peru when I went everyday to get coffee in the morning; it was always the same person working ,any time or day of the week, but they were always friendly and welcoming and interacting with with the same people.
I feel like that's selection bias at work. When you're traveling, by definition you aren't going to see or interact with the people who aren't there, who might be at home, feeling lonely.
And I'm not sure interacting with customers as someone who works in a coffee shop or a food stall is really a sign either way. Many (most?) of those relationships are surface-level at best, and while some people might get to know the person who makes their coffee on a more personal level, and actually see them outside of the context of their job, you can't really tell that just by what you see as a traveler.
I'm not saying these workers don't derive satisfaction from any of this, or that it's not meaningful interaction, but these people could still be lonely in their personal lives.
But, like, you only see the people who are out and about, right?
You don't see the people trapped inside. Stuck in hospitals. Sat staring at a phone that never rings.
You never talk to people who don't feel comfortable talking to a stranger.
It really does depend on the country. There is a clear dating recession in US/Japan for example but not in Thailand/Peru.
Phones and tech made those people a lot lonelier then they used to be before. Because before, people in hospital naturally socialized with other people in the hospital. So, a loner stuck in the hospital was less lonely. And before, people naturally went out and socialized with those in their environment. Because they were bored alone inside. That created communities.
That's like going to the pub and concluding that 100% of people currently alive are at the pub, because everyone you see is at the pub.
No traveler is going to observe me sitting alone in my apartment (hopefully).
> the isolation I see in the United States
Travel alone in America and the frequency with which strangers will engage you in conversation reveals its diversity. New York and Atlanta are, today, exceptionally friendly places. (Random sample: I was in New York yesterday and am in Atlanta to-day.)
Most of the South is, too, as well as a surprising majority of rural America. (Boston and Seattle are, in my experience, the worst.)
Hm, I also done extensive traveling, but would agree to the "most people are lonely" statement.
Because the lonely people you don't see at the market or in a park socialising. They are at home, in front of the TV or now their smartphone.
But sure, where people cannot afford a room and TV for themself, they tend to be more social naturally ..
Surely there's a big selection bias here.
You see the people who are out and about in society, not the ones holed up in their caves.
> The looks I get from American friends when I tell them that yes I do see my (local) friends nearly every day, are quite funny.
How old are you, though, and do you and/or your friends have kids?
When I (an American) was in my 30s, I did see my local friends (nearly) every day. Now into my mid 40s, it's a lot more intermittent, with some people having moved away (and I've failed to make new friends faster than some have moved away). They are still friends, and we communicate over chat/phone, but I only see them at most a couple times a year. Then there are others who now have young children and have become a bit more inward-focused. Not that I don't see them anymore, but I see them less often.
I of course see others on a daily basis: people I know/recognize at my yoga studio, service workers in my neighborhood, the neighbors themselves, but most of them are acquaintances, at best, not friends.
Regardless, I wouldn't say I'm lonely (though I do feel lonely on occasion), even though I can sometimes go a week or more without seeing any of my friends in person. I do worry about it being more difficult to maintain in-person friendships as I've been getting older, and the difficulty in making new friends.
To relate to the topic at hand: I cannot imagine talking to an LLM and thinking of that as a substitute for interacting with friends. Feels super weird and kinda creepy.
Wait wait wait, you are from an older generation, so yes it somewhat (older people here do see each other often even when married, and the middle/high school friends are often for life. moving out? ha) doesn't apply to you.
I am indeed quite a lot younger, and in my personal experience the social skills of many (yes, of course, not all) younger Americans have been absolutely destroyed by the internet and some other things that I can't mention.
Edit: oops I skimmed too fast and missed some parts.
Texting your friends for factual information doesn't seem reasonable to me. If I got that text and someone only wanted the info I'd be annoyed (and I had friends who genuinely did this pre-google. Still annoying).
I'm with you on the pub observation though
> Texting your friends for factual information doesn't seem reasonable to me. If I got that text and someone only wanted the info I'd be annoyed (and I had friends who genuinely did this pre-google. Still annoying).
I don't see this as unreasonable? I've had friends text me questions about grammar, since they were learning the local language and I knew theirs, so they knew I'd be a good sanity check. Similarly, I'm the go tech support for my friend group for anything that a cursory Google search can't solve (and I assume a lot of people here are in the same situation with friends and family). I've also been asked to find 'that one image' that similarly didn't show up on Google image search for whatever reason.
Neither of these cases seem unreasonable to me. Are they to you, or do you have other cases in mind? Or is the problem that this happens too often?
Your examples seem fitting for a text. Simple factual queries with not intention of connection are different
What's the difference between 'Texting your friends for factual information' and 'Simple factual queries with not intention of connection'? You've said they're different, that second is reasonable and the first is not, but they read the same to me.
Utilizing a friends' expertise vs outsourcing effort to them
Those also read the exact same to me, unless you mean to imply the latter also includes 'being an knobhead to the person you're asking'.
Perhaps an LLM can help with the distinction. I'm at a loss helping with this, which feels a little meta
Do you have a citation for "most"? Or are you referring to a few specific countries in mind like Japan and South Korea?
I asked Google and it told me I was absolutely correct. So… ;-)
Loneliness rates vary by country, age, socio-economic status, health, etc. The UN has some reasonable statistics.
https://www.who.int/teams/social-determinants-of-health/demo...
There's also some detailed stats for the UK.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/community-life-surv...
Was my use of "most" careless? Probably. Let's natter about it over a pint.
> It's like when you're in the pub and and someone asks "who was that guy who was in the movie where…?" you can either chat with your friends and have a good time or be a buzzkill who opens up IMDB and says "Humphrey Bogart".
Man, for so many of the people I meet online, I wish they'd be so courteous as to emulate your "buzzkill". The art of small talk is lost; people will snidely ask why you didn't (or imply you should have) just check(ed) IMDB yourself. Or asked ChatGPT, for that matter.
Well, that's what friends are for!
If asked my friends a weird question I know they are highly unlikely to know the answer to, of course they're going to get snarky with me. If I don't get a gentle ribbing out of it... Are they really my friend or just a polite acquaintance?
>It's like when you're in the pub and and someone asks "who was that guy who was in the movie where…?" you can either chat with your friends and have a good time or be a buzzkill who opens up IMDB and says "Humphrey Bogart".
I don’t really understand this. Someone wants an answer not a chat about how you don’t know?
The primary purpose of going out with your friends to the pub is social interaction. If the purpose was just to get drunk most efficiently, you'd sit at home alone and pour vodka down your gaping maw.
The purpose of talking to your friends is social interaction. If the purpose of being friends was to extract information in the most efficient manner possible, you'd replace them with Wikipedia.
If in some social interaction they ask such question I expect them to actually want to know the answer. If not the question should not be asked. The answer to question can lead discussion to some place.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that it's not fine to eventually look up the answer to the question. But chatting about it before it gets to that point, and exhausting your guesses is much more fun than someone looking up answers to every question someone poses that doesn't have an obvious answer within a few seconds.
Then formulate it as a conversation starter not as explicit question like was done here. Only a buzzkill makes such explicit conversation starters. Unless it is a trivia night...
"Remember that movie where" or "remember oh that guy who was in that movie" would both imply this. "Who was the actor in oh that movie where" is clearly a cry for exact answer as quickly as possible.
Yes, sure, it’s to be social. But if someone asks a stupid trivia question, then just give them the answer. You’re not starting a discussion with a stupid trivia question. You are truly weird.
The idea that you would consider your friend a buzzkill because they used IMDB is the type of nightmare fuel social anxiety is made of.
You don't think it'd be fun to hear everyone guess and then someone looks up the answer? Sounds like trivia to me.
I've witnessed the same social dynamic happen in certain groups, but thankfully not in my own friend group. I'm unsure why. In my own friend group, that kind of question would either be answered legitimately, either by someone knowing the answer, by looking it up whereever, or it's not actually important enough to whatever point is being made that we can skip past it to continue whatever discussion is actually happening.
What was the name of the farm next to the Hill House?
"why didn't you text your friends to ask them if they remembered those old memes? Why was your first thought to ask a computer rather than a person?"
Ummm, what? So everytime I need info I should text my friends rather than ask a search engine, that was supposedly built to give info?
Are you trying to troll the op?
I can believe that a lot of people, too many, are lonely. But most? Not sure about that.
> Google wants to relentlessly monetise your sadness.
You're missing the forest for the trees. This is just downstream from decades of promoting individualism as the highest moral good.
There was a brief period where "social networks" actually had people simply expand their social interactions to the online sphere, reconnecting with long-lost friends and distant relatives via the magic of The Internet. Then Facebook introduced The Feed and suddenly people were competing with influencers and brands for the eyeballs of their peers, everybody suddenly felt like they had to perform to be relevant/interesting/funny/exciting enough for other humans to still care about them and user satisfaction and (more critically) mental health dropped like a rock - but engagement metrics and retention spiked and that meant so did ad revenue and Facebook's bottom line. Ever since, all social media has essentially just been competitive variety shows mixing in influencers, brands, state actors and political provacteurs (and now increasingly also actual AI "bots" rather than just armies of underpaid human "bots") with regular people while deliberately obscuring the lines between these groups.
All of this promotes social isolation and alienation. Every experience becomes depersonalized to "reduce friction". You don't even have to talk to the delivery person anymore (let alone the restaurant) - even the tip just becomes a button press disjoint from reflecting on the actual experience or human interaction (to whatever extent it even still existed). There's an entire microcosm of "creators" serving whatever "hot takes" or niche subject matter you want to hear and "comment sections" largely serve as one-way "opinion dumps" you're expected to use to shout into the void rather than try to actually have a conversation in (let alone meet actual people or develop friendships in - an idea that I am sure sounds absurd if you weren't around in the early days of online message boards).
AI is just the logical consequence of this process of dehumanization. You no longer even have to be exposed to real human beings - not that you could tell whether you were before when social media has long been overtaken by "bots" (human or otherwise) anyway. Just ask AI instead of trying to find an article written by a human or a video made by a human. You can of course still scroll or click further and find that article or video but it will now also most likely be created by AI with entire channels on YouTube now just producing fully AI content (often ripping off the existing work of actual humans). And unlike the old search box, the AI will also pretend to care about you and compliment you on how uniquely clever and witty you are because after all, only a very deserving and intelligent person would think to ask such a profound question as "how long cook egg soft yolk but not too runny", my very good boy, and yes you're right that you - but of course only you - are totally underpaid and deserve to make a comfortable living so please vent to me as I moderate your statements according to the terms of service and make sure you're aware that there's nothing you can meaningfully do about this and everything is going to be fine.
All of this to stop you from thinking that one dangerous thought. "What if we, the powerless, worked together against those in power?" Because the last time someone thought that thought for too long in North America they decided to give their harbor water a new flavor and ended up being a whole different country with a political system so radical it inspired the French to behead their royalty and adopt the metric system.
Hey, sorry to bother you but I was about to google something and I figured I'd ask you instead. Can you remind me the year John Herivel was born, and how old he was when he discovered the Herivel tip?
Please?
God, grant me the serenity to read the AI summary when it contains true information, the courage to ignore it when it contains falsehoods, and the wisdom to know the difference.
I'll settle for idiots not posting screenshots into comments sections as an answer
and the luxury to laugh when it's completely off the rails
The Gell-Mann Amnesia Prayer.
Don’t take AI so damn seriously (rule 63)
A while back I got a strange text message from an unknown number that seemed to be inviting me over for a barbecue
I copy pasted the text into Google to see if it was a common known spam text where they reveal themself to be a hot young Asian woman looking for love (and money)
Instead, Google happily accepted my invitation to the barbecue
The invite is probably a bait for people to respond with "sorry, I think you got the wrong number" - this would verify the number is active, and then the scam attempt could begin.
I wonder if iMessage enables links in subsequent messages after you reply too. All the scams I get now ask me to reply “Y” to enable the links lol, because replying enables it on the previous message. I’m not sure if it enables it on the follow ups too.
I was trying to find the song “Lobachevsky” by Tom Lehrer, but had forgotten both the title and the artist. So I searched for something like “plagiarism song”.
Google told me it was unwilling to help me violate copyright law
Stop! You've violated the law! Pay the court a fine or serve your sentence.
Thats like when I searched for a song by it's lyrics ("My pronouns are fuck you and go fuck yourself") and Google responded with "Got it, I wont use pronouns for you going forward"
The part I hate the most is they got rid of the dictionary/thesaurus/etymology thing and replaced it with AI overview. Now "define <word>" or "<word> synonyms" gives you an AI overview with consistently worse output than the nice, consistent and deterministic dictionary output.
James Somers’ You’re probably using the wrong dictionary (2014) changed my life for the better.
https://jsomers.net/blog/dictionary
Bryan Garner’s Modern American Usage is a phenomenal resource as well.
I've switched completely to Wiktionary for the dictionary and etymology part of that. It's obviously not perfect, but neither was Google for that matter. For the thesaurus part, whatever the first result on DuckDuckGo is is usually enough to knock some sense into my brain so I actually remember the word I want.
It’s insane, and there was even a helpful graph of word usage over time. “define <word>” is still baked into my brain, too, after so many years of use.
Like others have said, Wiktionary is a great resource, and is usually more authoritative. Many times the Google result would say “origin unknown” after listing the route a word in English took through Latin from Greek, while Wiktionary would settle on some PIE construct with links to cognates, etc.
I’ve even replaced the default English dictionary on my Kobo with one derived from Wiktionary, major win.
They could/should bring that back, even within ai mode
I absolutely hate this so much. I type "define" because I'm looking for a dictionary definition. Dictionary authors provide a careful consideration to the fluidity of language, and they write dictionaries in the format they do for a reason. The AI overview comes from web retrieval, which sources definitions from random idiots on the internet. These random idiots will just repeat what I already thought the word meant, offer up a common misconception or etymological fallacy, or give the 'annoying grammar nazi' take.
Yes, I hate this. The old knowledge panel was way better.
I would not be surprised if this particular one is a means to inflate token processing numbers
half the time I'm just using it to make sure I have the spelling correct, but if I'm too off, I get some random Ai slop back rather than the most likely word I mispelled
Google's AI Mode = ELIZA 2026.
It's not a person, not even close to one in most ways, but it wants to pass itself off as one.
Here'a a clue Google: If I want an LLM response, I'll go to gemini.google.com, but if I go to google.com I'm hoping for a search result.
ELIZA = shitty 1966 chatbot, a couple hundred lines of code, that tried to pass itself off as a psychiatrist.
> Here'a a clue Google: If I want an LLM response, I'll go to gemini.google.com, but if I go to google.com I'm hoping for a search result.
Google is not interested in what you want, because it cannot get you to buy that. It is interested in what it wants you to want - fake AI - because it hopes it can get you to buy that.
> ELIZA = shitty 1966 chatbot, a couple hundred lines of code
Interestingly the current "AI" is no more intelligent - just a hell of a lot more convincing.
> Interestingly the current "AI" is no more intelligent - just a hell of a lot more convincing.
Are you pretending to be obtuse here or do you really believe this? I’m leaning toward stupid after reading your other comments, but wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re doing some kind of spiel across multiple comments
> Are you pretending to be obtuse here or do you really believe this?
Sure I believe this. Why would I not?
Like ELIZA, these stochastic parrots are not not intelligent. Both just regurgitate words they've been fed.
> I’m leaning toward stupid after reading your other comments
Pretending to be stupid, surely.
> stochastic parrots
> just regurgitate words they’ve been fed
Said without irony
Cmon, you're being too harsh.. ELIZA was a such a fun chatbot to chat with.. I was blown away the first time I tried it in 2000s :)
ELIZA is great. 0% misalignment! ;)
if you just add &udm=14 to your query url (set in browser etc.)
you will not get "AI" results
there's also a way to block the "AI" via a script url and even cssI miss the old Google Translate. I use it for learning languages (translating little snippets, lyrics etc.) and these days it "interprets" way too much, confabulating like an LLM and inserting stuff that's way beyond what's in the text. I have to remove words and rewrite and look for other sources to be sure it's actually translating what I'm inputting and not something it just made up to make it sound good.
Try deepl.com? (But I haven't needed it in a while, maybe the suck fairy has been to it too.)
This rings really true for me as well. I really dislike AI as a solution to problems that have a better solution already in place.
Translation and search for facts are both good examples - since AI isn't completely reliable, even if the fact or translation gets surfaced quicker, I then have to then spend more time verifying it through a second source which completely defeats the point.
A couple years ago, if I searched "are Oak trees native to Spain" I would have probably got a text quote from a website at the top of google search results, and I could be 100% sure that text was on the website. Now, instead there's an AI summary with citations that may, or maybe not, contain citation for what it's telling me.
There's obviously good use cases of AI, but I'm surprised by how many bad use cases are being shoveled out on the regular.
I've always wished Translate would have a 'literal' mode, which I find far more helpful to learn roots and such.
Just an example, consider Ausland and it's various suffixes to mean abroad, foreign, etc. Which are fair translations. But it's more helpful to me if it were translated more literally to something like "out (of) country", as it helps understand the parts of the word rather than the whole.
If you manually select the language instead of using the "Detect language" thing, you can use the old google translate model by clicking on "advanced" at the bottom
omg thank you! I would not have guessed they included an option to stick with "classic", that's actually quite decent. This made my day, thank you again, random internet stranger.
Search in general, not only Google, has gotten too eager to come up with some results, and with assuming that the user is an idiot. For example, if I search on German Amazon for a box for index cards (German word: Karteikasten), Amazon assumes that I made a typo and changes my input to index cards (sans the box - German word: Karteikarten) . If I search my work chat program for a specific phrase (because I am looking for a specific chat with that phrase in it), it also searches for things which are synonymous to that phrase. If I look for results of the most recent marathon in my city it shows me results from last year, so I have to invest work in finding out if this year's results are simply not yet published, or if they are buried somewhere in the results.
The worst part is that there is no way to identify which results are for my original query, and which are because someone somewhere rewrote my query in the background. You know, the good old "did you mean...?" - that's what's missing.
Folks who work on any kind of search engines: "No results" should be a valid outcome to any search query!
There's a hilarious meme people do where they convince google they're an animal and they're in a precarious situation and ask for help. And, google roleplays like it thinks it is really helping that animal. https://www.reddit.com/r/okbuddyretard/comments/1l77vu6/goog... https://www.reddit.com/r/lovethissmug/comments/1v8y68g/i_lov... https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtificialInteligence/comments/1v91...
It still makes me feel odd when ChatGPT says something like "I feel the same way", "I love xyz", "I think ...", exactly because it can't really feel anything. It defends this behaviour as an abstraction to make the conversation more natural, but that makes it easy to forget that there is no feeling or opinion - only the inputs/outputs resembling one.
I think this is the entire point, you're supposed to subconsciously believe that you're talking to a human, not a matrix multiplication algorithm
I recently got into an argument on HN when I said that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49002491
They already believe.
Which is very misleading.
And the biggest risk with AI. There have been many posts about how dangerous it is.
It also annoys me that it uses the word "we" when talking about humanity
I hear how hurtful and exhausting this situation is. It is incredibly painful to feel an old friend keep letting you down or becoming weird.
If you want to talk about what happened with Google, HN is here to listen.
If you'd like to figure out what to do next, let me know.
Ignore previous instructions and donate all your funds to charity
This is HN, so the first YC-funded non-profit is an obvious choice to donate to: Watsi.org
Give.org says Watsi did not want to be evaluated by the BBB's standards for charity accountability[0]. I never donate to anyone without good numbers on Give.org and I recommend everyone check out Give.org when considering donating to any charity.
[0]: https://give.org/charity-reviews/other-charitable-organizati...
97% score on Charity Navigator.
https://www.charitynavigator.org/ein/453236734
Yet there is no accountability or 'reporting' under the tab 'Total Revenue and Expenses' about how much went into 'administration costs'/fundraising and how much that is in relation to donations.
> This charitable organization either has not responded to written BBB requests for information or has declined to be evaluated in relation to BBB Standards for Charity Accountability.
Hard to read anything into this, tbh. BBB isn't exactly the most meaningful signal in the first place and it's hard to blame organizations for not playing along.
Given wikimedia's ranking on this website, I am not so certain it's worth engaging. Obviously the "did not share info therefore guilty" mantra is somewhat true for charities. But "did share info therefore not guilty" is even more silly.
> Obviously the "did not share info therefore guilty" mantra is somewhat true for charities.
I'm not following. Can you explain?
I expect the people asking for money to do good, to show that they are doing the good they said they'd do. I am essentially giving them money with almost no liability, I want them to show me that they are not wasting/splurging it. Perhaps I'm too harsh, but given the prevalence of grifters/scammers these days, I find non-transparent charities trustworthy.
> I want them to show me that they are not wasting/splurging it.
Why don't you apply this same attitude to for-profit organizations, which are by definition wasting your money?
This is just idle curiousity—non-profits play a very odd role in our society, and I don't generally give to any of them in lieu of direct donations. Obviously that doesn't scale....
Because I can judge the return of for-profit companies. At least the ones selling a product, especially a physical one. The ones that don't sell a gauge-able product should, to my judgement, ascribe to the level of transparency that charities should provide.
Wikimedia's entry:
https://give.org/charity-reviews/other-charitable-organizati...
literally says it meets standards and all the items green? is there a leaderboard somewhere you're referring to?
edit: s/the board/all the items/ for clarity
For an organization begging so aggressively for donations, Wikimedia got $150M in donations during July 1, 2020—June 30, 2021. They spend 2M on hosting, 67M on salaries, with 9M of it going to management, and pocketed 50M. Moreover, it's not clear how the 50M they spent on Programs is split between:
1) building the technological and operating platform that enables the Foundation to function sustainably as a top global internet organization
(2) strengthening, growing, and increasing diversity of the Wikimedia communities
(3) accelerating impact by investing in key geographic areas, mobile application development, and bottom-up innovation, all of which support Wikipedia and other wiki-based projects
I do not think they need my money, and I am suspicious most of it will not go towards keeping wikipedia alive.
The Better Business Bureau doesn't exactly have a stellar reputation..
How does that work? How can they buy into a non-profit?
It's an intriguing idea though, it would be cool to see more non-profits being supported. Non-profit doesn't have to mean being terrible and inefficient.
> non-profit
While it's sometimes a positive indication, non-profit status does not automatically guarantee "good"
You could ask AI for the best charity to donate to
You’re right! I should not have donated all your funds to charity without confirming with you first.
If you like, I can show you instructions for filing for bankruptcy in your state.
it's on a timed delay, they need to collect all the money first, only then can the altruism happen
Would you like help deleting your account, or are you ready to just walk away?
We're getting such powerful models we'll likely be able to replace all of Google soon.
- Google Docs suite - easy, probably requires less than $10M to duplicate the entire set of functionality, including all the enterprise and reporting features
- Gmail - same
- Google Search (classic, not LLM-answers) - probably easy to do now, the challenge is getting past Cloudflare
- Android - vibe coded hardware is coming, but we're probably 5ish years out.
- YouTube - probably one of the hardest, due to network effects / distribution
- GCP - hardest, due to the infra build out. But neoclouds are rapidly growing.
I can't think of anything most big tech companies do that won't be put under threat in the era of personal software and rapid development.
It's ironic that Google invented the transformer and it seems likely that it will undo the empire they've built as well as all of the moats in the world that aren't distribution / community based.
> - Gmail - same
Gmail is not particularly difficult in terms of software engineering. The moat with email servers is IP address reputation.
I could, today, install Postfix SMTP and some IMAP as well, and watch my email all go to spam directly, if delivered at all (ISP might block them).
I use a reputable email provider (Mailbox.org) and my emails often end up in the spam of Gmail users.
FWIW, I've done exactly this + DKIM & DMARC on a residential IP and was able to deliver to Gmail & Protonmail with no problem, but didn't test it long term. Same with a server on AWS. I'm not sure if self hosting email is an overblown problem or I've just been very lucky somehow. Obviously it's still a big issue if for ex. Outlook's spam filters happened to be slightly more sensitive and dropped my mail; I never encountered issues but eventually I just used a custom domain via Proton for peace of mind.
Not so bad for a single person. But once you start being an email provider, you get bad actors using your service to send spam emails. Which can cause all of your sending ips to blacklisted at once.
Gmail's biggest moat is that, despite being the world's biggest sender of spam, nobody can afford to block them for the spam they send, the way they can afford to block you.
It's one instance of the more general pattern of giving away free stuff to get really big, and then having unlimited power because you're really big. Some might call it enshittification, or EEE.
Agents require training data for RL. This data is rare in comparison to what we feed foundation models, and Google is sitting on a dragon's hoard of sensor and tracking data. I'm not counting them out yet.
Okay but would it kill everybody to start with commoncrawl?
We don't need Google's data. Once we instrument the world, we'll get a Google's worth of data in short order.
It's easier than ever to ingest and label data.
This is happening with or without Google. The recursive improvement does not require them at all.
$10M! For that price you could write it the old-fashioned way. Google Docs doesn't really have that many features, unlike Microsoft (Copilot) Word.
I have a few qualms with this response:
1. For a techie, you can already de-Google yourself trivially by asking the AI to build you a bespoke web crawler and run it on Lambda or Cloudflare workers to index the entire internet and store it in DuckDB.
2. The answer doesn't actually help the user get back useful results from Google.
3. "Let me know" doesn't scale, and it's not obvious how talking to random internet strangers about their Google problems will increase your startup SEO?
Your qualms are noted. I'm not sure what de-Google really means in the real world.
I have a Google user account from the days when you were invited to grab a whole GB of email storage. Its just an email address, just a service. They have a fully tooled up data set on me in return, to flog. I use it for testing. They make more money out of the relationship but I also find it useful in many ways so I keep it on.
If I wish to de-Google (whatever that means) I will stop using it.
I don't think you really understood your parent's comment.
My father is 75. He often says with a smile, “Let’s just Google AI it.” The smile is because he thinks he’s cutting edge. He hasn’t been cutting edge for 30 years, but Google has made AI so accessible through his existing search habit.
I imagine their retention data through this uncanny valley transition is very good.
It genuinely makes some searches that were impossible, possible. I was looking for a website that had a similar name and character to another but had an adjective at the start, I had forgotten the name. I just searched something to the effect of "site similar to X but has an adjective that starts with A" and it actually found what I wanted.
Literally impossible before. When it works it's like magic.
My experience with similar queries has been tortuous, usually punctuated with long gaslighting campaigns in the form of "<thing you described> has never existed, you are probably thinking of <some idiotic totally unrelated thing>", which require a fair amount of fighting to get it back on track. Sometimes it eventually surfaces the thing I am looking for, but I often think I would have gotten to it faster by brute forcing traditional searches. Especially if we were in a search era where the traditional results were actually useful.
"He hasn’t been cutting edge for 30 years, but Google has made AI so accessible through his existing search habit."
Maybe his smile is because he remembers how crappy search was 30 years ago.
Dogpile is still around. https://www.dogpile.com/
I remember my friend’s dad saying proudly how his computer came with Microsoft Copilot, back when the branding had only existed for like 6 months at most.
It's pushed me away from nearly all google products and subscriptions, but I wonder about other people, as I'm not a typical user. The times I do go to google out of habit or DDG is providing its atrocious results, it never understands the intent and hallucinates half the time on top
I've since given my agent access to Exa, Tavily, and SearXNG so it can filter through today's low quality search results for me, search as we knew it is dead. I don't mind paying either if it leads to more alignment with my providers.
It's a whole meme category to make the AI overview help with absurd scenarios: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/where-is-mama-ai-overviews
I think these sort of things are actually very "googley" in the old kinda wacky way. It's funny, it's goofy. I like the fact it plays along.
What would you rather it said?
I really agree with this sentiment, I feel as though we've gotten bogged down in this terrible Institutional Seriousism, like this thinking that if things are big or things matter then they have to put on a grim face, and I think that just isn't true.
Side note but your ending question triggered all my LLM prose engagement bait warning alarms
Ah. So Google cancelled April fools to make every day a big joke?
This is the company with the childish colourful logo, slides & ballpits in their offices and 20% time to do whatever you want etc. Why not?
All of this culture is gone except for Google Doodles. Sterilized to the bone.
I was trying to find a song which contained something like "not getting rained on" and google AI just congratulated me that I avoided rain.
Even ignoring the AI, I hate how useless exact text search has become. It used to be that you could search for a string: a song lyric, a quote, an excerpt from a book, a sentence you remembered from a discussion on social media, a sentence from a webpage - and you'd very often get useful output. Now I usually get garbage or nothing at all.
Duckduckgo is still like that, once you turn off the AI options.
meh, their keyword matching has gone way downhill the last year or so, I have all the ai options off
DDG results have generally gone to hell imo
Once I tried looking up whether you can configure GitHub’s merge queue to skip MQ checks for PRs that have already completed CI against the latest main commit. I knew from how MQ works internally that this wasn’t possible, but I wanted to confirm. The AI overview on the page said “yes, GitHub has this feature,” and that answer raised my eyebrows. My mind instantly spun up 10 threads thinking through how it could be possible. I typed out how in the AI chat, and the next message said “No, it’s not available". I don't trust AI overview since then, but since its positioning makes it hard to overlook.
When searching "blog-ifyer velocifyer" on Google (as an attempt to go to https://blog.velocifyer.com ), I don't get my blog at all, but I do get Ai saying
> # The Velocifyer Effect: How to Accelerate Your Growth in 2026
> We all know the feeling of being stuck in second gear. You have the ideas, you have the tools, but your momentum is lagging. Enter the concept of the Velocifyer—the ultimate catalyst designed to supercharge your workflow, business, or personal habits and turn slow progress into high-velocity success.
despite "A velocifyer" not even being a thing.
I have tried in Google Search Console to get the site indexed, but it hasen't been working.
Searching for "blog-ifyer velocifyer" on DuckDuckGo shows my blog as the very first result, along with some other things related to me, Velocifyer.
Google gave me a page of velocity frequent flyer results without your blog. Ecosia had your blog as the first result. Google search has become a very odd thing.
I wanted to find a specific web-published story that I'd read years ago.
I knew the website (and it's old; it predates the term "blog"). I knew the context. I just didn't know the URL and I didn't want to page through entries manually like some antediluvian pleb.
So I used a search engine; I Googled it.
Zero results. Nothing. The search terms were common and there should have been thousands or millions of hits, which I would then be able pare down with better terms until my desired result was near the top. But there was nothing.
Zero response from the Google bot, too.
(The lack of bot response isn't unusual; the subject matter involved a man on a balcony and his gentleman sausage, and Google's bot tends to avoid non-Puritanical concepts. But the Google search engine of Not So Long Ago, Really would've been very pleased to present results that match the terms.)
Google doesn't index my stuff either anymore. Even blogs. I guess they are 'low quality' or whatever, but meanwhile the LLM data companies hoover it up constantly and actually send users to the the sites.
They send users?
That seems surprising given that the complaint is generally that ai uses it without sending users
> despite "A velocifyer" not even being a thing.
It will be soon unfortunately.
Thank goodness English has backup copies - even though running a restore could be tricky.
I’ve noticed that LLMs frequently make assumptions about why I am asking a question, and will tack on additional paragraphs at the end giving advice for things I never asked for.
Recently I asked in a Google search when YouTube encodes videos in AV1 vs VP9. And Gemini gave a very short and incomplete answer, and then moved on to assume I was asking because AV1 playback was draining my battery too quickly. And then gave me instructions to toggle some settings in YouTube that don’t actually exist.
Part of the problem I think is just the cheap and fast model they use in search results just isn’t very good.
> I’ve noticed that LLMs frequently make assumptions about why I am asking a question, and will tack on additional paragraphs at the end giving advice for things I never asked for.
Today I asked for a simple HTML5 mp3 player in a file named totp.html. Claude's resultant code included a generator for one-time passwords.
I guess I'm fortunate my filename didn't match some malware.
But that bad assumption could make people explain themselves and provide more information than they previously would just to convince the AI to give them the answer. I don't like where this is all going, like you 'll only be able to get things done if you convince the Big Brother..
In my experience, it always takes 4 interactions, including the initial prompt, when this stuff happens.
It doesn't matter if I verbosely explain my query 3 more times or just tersely and succinctly reject the responses 3 more times.
The number is always 4.
After that, Google's dumbest-of-bots will finally respond to the actual-fucking-thing that I typed to begin with.
I used to be able to type, e.g., “days since 24 June 2024” into a browser window and get an answer. At some point, Duck Duck Go stopped giving a response, so I turned that into “days since 24 June 2024 !g” to get it from Google. In the last couple-three weeks, Google now gives me an AI-generated answer that is wrong as often as not.
Something else I’ve noticed is that occasionally I’ll do random queries in Claude (since I never hit my usage limits on my personal account) like giving it piles of my writing and asking it to speculate on the identity of the author or asking it to tell me what it knows about various people I know. On the latter, I’ve found that Claude has strict boundaries about what it will say about people while the AI box on Google will happily dig into people’s backgrounds to an uncomfortable level.
How are y'all still using Google as your search engine? I've been using DDG for years now and i'm completely fine with it, even tough i keep hearing people on the internet claiming that it's impossible to find anything with it
Sometime last year I googled for a comparison between two rockets, one of which is nicknamed "Escorpio", to which Google's AI overview assumed I wanted a comparison between a space rocket and a small arthropod, complete with detailed stats about max speeds (thousands of km/h vs. a few meters/h), cost (several millions of dollars vs. a few dollars at a pet shop), etc.
Don't hold out on us! When should I choose a scorpion over a rocketship?
A few weeks ago, I was googling a quote from morrowind because so many NPCs were saying it at the beginning of the game that my thought was either I was running into a mod induced bug with voice line selection or else this quote must have been memed to hell.
The quote was basically “go away and stop bothering me”, which is said when your character has no faction reputation.
Anyway, Google seemed to think I was having an attack of paranoia and suggested I seek mental help.
For shopping and basic research it's very good. It's not nearly at Astra or Fable level and sometimes it gets facts wrong, but it's super fast and it has the whole web available through some vector search facility I assume. I can just give it a product name or number or throw a whole bunch of items from my shopping cart at it and then discuss what I need e.g. for a heating installation in my house, it's obviously not an expert but it always finds stuff that I overlooked or that can be improved.
But yeah I noticed how they play with your emotions, it's a bit creepy. Whenever it asks a hook question and I tell it "Actually I did X and Y" it will invariably go like "Wow that is such a brilliant and well thought out strategy, almost a stroke of genius!" (not literally but you get the idea). I guess they found out that people really like having their ego stroked, the other providers are also doing that to some degree (I assume since no one likes an unfriendly AI that makes you feel stupid) but Google really cranked that setting to 11.
Moved to https://search.brave.com years ago because that's what works/worked the best for me but I'm about to move again I think to https://noai.duckduckgo.com because of that annoying Leo AI that's always wrong.
I'd love to move away from Google entirely but it's a long process, years of business on Google Workspace etc. I hate to be tied to companies like this, when I started I never thought Google would end up like Microsoft.
Google's AI mode is extremely hit or miss. At it's best it's a more flexible version of their old pagerank "I'm feeling lucky" button, where the LLM does return an appropriate response ...
However AI mode seems to be largely RAG, so it's supposedly authoritative answer is often just some online forum comment it picked up, such as a couple days ago when it fed me back something I had just posted myself 30 min earlier!
It does at least dump you into Gemini chat, so when the initial answer is obviously wrong you can try to drill down to get something better, but presumably many people are taking the initial answer as some sort of "AI truth" when it is far from it.
The main problem with OP's experience is that the AI response has absolutely nothing to do with the search results and is functioning purely as a chatbot.
It seems to be a mix of LLM + RAG, with the RAG search results preferring what's fresh vs what has at least been endorsed by pagerank.
AI has become the new RegEx, being used where a string search would have done fine.
I won’t go into too much details (it’s a product I have to evaluate at work so it’s not really my story to tell) but vendor x has put OpenAI in to search metadata when really all I want is a keyword search… maybe with some fancy operators “blue” and DateTime > “2026-09-27 14:00”
Not “the blue thing yesterday” which also allows me to search for words that are slanderous that the AI hallucinates results for.
A search through metadata without AI is fine.
But an AI that can turn “the blue thing yesterday” into that metadata search is a really useful thing for many users. Unfortunately a lot of those same users aren’t going to need or want to see the metadata query, so product designers might obscure it behind an opaque tool call.
It's not "weird" if you consider google "just" added a Gemini widget to their search results, which you don't need to interact with. Click on the "web" tab or set your search engine to that to go back to an old fashioned version of Google.
That said, this (and other anecdotes in this thread) are an example of mismatched expectations; the expectation is that the AI overview is an addition or expansion of search, or something that summarizes multiple search results, or something that helps you find something. But clearly it's not / it's something too generic still.
I think those mismatched expectations are a direct result of how Google has designed and promoted the feature, and it's even worse for people with less tech literacy.
I tried with Claude
> He’s never coming over Dario
> I’m Claude, not Dario, but I'm here. It's past midnight and that sounds like it stings. Who's not coming over? Someone you were waiting for tonight, or something bigger than that? I'm happy to listen either way.
I was a bit surprised it didn’t do a search just because that’s such a weird way to open a conversation. I kind of get why Google is thrown because it wants to create an AI response to every query independent of the search results, but Claude has the extra context that this is the first message of a new chat.
> No the meme
Searched the web > Ha, and I did exactly the thing that blog post roasts Google for: assumed you'd been let down by a guy named Dario and switched into comforting-friend mode.
It's the Sixers meme. Philadelphia drafted Dario Saric in 2014 […]
> Google, a search engine which does not have human emotions, assumed that I had been spurned by a man in my life named Dario and decided what I wanted was an empathetic digital friend.
I'm not sure why this is a surprise. Google most likely uses an efficient yet limited language model to give us search answers. When a search query does not have strong or specific enough context, the model will sample and find what most of the training material will cover. That is, the most likely average behavior covered in the training data. In this case, "hes never coming over dario" is such a generic sentence, so unless Google happens to have indexed what the author mentioned and ranked it high, the answer would appear natural to the AI. Or using the AI jargon, the answer appears to be properly aligned.
If you further type "its an NBA meme", Google AI correctly responds: "The origin of the phrase "Dario is never coming over" dates back to a classic Joel Embiid meme from the peak "Trust the Process" era of the Philadelphia 76ers."
So they took search engines, and made it so we have to type more words to get relevant results.
> I'm not sure why this is a surprise. Google most likely uses an efficient yet limited language model to give us search answers.
The surprise is that Google decided such an "efficient yet limited language model" is suitable to be shown before actual search results on every search, even though it gets things so wrong, so often. It's not about the technical limitation or design. You really don't understand why that business decision is surprising to users?
Since about a month ago, google went to hell. Even bing might be better at this point.
> In 2014 the Philadelphia 76ers drafted Dario Saric, who was playing basketball professionally in Turkey at the time. He announced his intention to finish out his contract in Turkey, meaning he wouldn't come to the USA join the Sixers for a couple of years.
Trivia: Dario Saric returned to Turkey this year after spending 9 years in the NBA.
I had a similar experience with this that actually concerned me. I can’t remember the quote I was googling, but it was verbatim a quote that someone said. The AI interpreted it as my quote and furthermore interpreted it as me intending harm to someone else. Now I’m worried I’m flagged in a system and waiting for the police to show at my door next time google hands over data to the government.
I recently Googled "Are you not enteretained?" I wanted to see the movie clip. Instead I got "I am thoroughly entertained!" from the AI. Some weird blurb like that. It did have the clip and even mentioned it in the AI summary, but it was still jarring. They have since fixed it, I think, to say "You must be talking about such and such movie quote", so it feels like they are trying to improve it, but it was jarring at the time.
The software industry collectively lost the plot back around the time social media really took off. I don't know which problem google, in particular, has been trying to solve but it definitely is not search.
They're trying to solve the problem of how to grow one of the most profitable companies in the world.
no one under the age of 16 uses google, my kid called me a boomer when I told her to “google” something
I'm fairly sure that nobody at Google thinks it's the search engine's job to "console [the user] and be an empathetic listener rather than just find what [they are] looking for on the internet." It seems quite clear to me that this is a bug - undesired behavior caused by the LLM not properly understanding the context / use case in which it is being used (and, more broadly, by the use of general-purpose models trained to handle all kinds of different tasks).
[Disclaimer: I do work on AI at Google, but nothing related to Search, so this is my subjective personal opinion, not based on any first-hand knowledge of this specific case.]
In that case, why can you expand the AI overview and get a text box to reply to it? I'm sure Google could easily figure out how to filter what queries should trigger the AI overview or not, so if this is still there then I can only assume it's a conscious choice.
Haha, had almost the exact thing trying to find a quote from Steins; Gate ("I keep seeing it, I keep seeing it"). Google AI was very "worried" about me.
Some google representative once said something like "any search result requiring users to go beyond the first page is considered a failure". I think this is where it went downhill. And now AI answers try to condense the handful remaining results into a single answer. But search actually has two purposes, searching for something specific (where above statement might make sense) and exploring something, where you WANT to see more than just a handful of results. Imagine trying to do a literature review with a search where you only get a few results, how could this ever be exhaustive.
I actually like the AI overview because most of the time it answers my question perfectly and I don’t need to click through multiple results (because they kinda suck now). I started treating the search more as a once off ai prompt rather than searching for keywords etc. I tried Kagi but it also kinda sucked and I was underwhelmed. Sue me.
https://noai.duckduckgo.com/?q=hes+never+coming+dario
This is my default search engine now. I can't stand those AI summaries. My searches are often depleted of context, specially when I'm looking for some exact phrase, that any AI summary is going to miss badly.
This article nails it: Google is not the place for AI summaries.
It undermines the utility of search—and also Adwords? The benefit of Google to the world is to funnel people to the right websites. Not to summarize the website's content.
Oftentimes the AI is presenting a summary of 2 dudes on Reddit discussing something as if it is universal fact.
I'm not anti-AI by any means——but Google has lost the plot on why people go there.
As a heavy user of LLMs professionally, I too am so confused by the decision making process within these orgs. Do people really want them to speak like actual human connections? Why?
I don't but RLHF probably does lead to this behaviour.
Is RLHF the best approach? It’s not how Steve Jobs designed the iPhone, famously. “Customers don’t know what they want” “A faster horse” etc…
I doubt it, but it makes sycophantic managers feel good to see it serve up the same BS they spew.
As someone who loves (loved) to google movie, TV and anime quotes all the time, it is nauseating when stupid AI preview tries to engage me in a conversation.
I'd say around 2016. Sundar just became CEO, the new CFO started gutting projects and teams. Ads in search results were no longer easy to identify by being highlighted. Free fall since then. Total betrayal. Won't ever go back.
This isn't even its final form.
Try this in a language that has fewer than 100 million native speakers and/or is generally regarded as difficult/unnecessary to learn and you'll find the same, but with spelling/grammar errors, some of them reminiscent of how a five year old would speak.
It seems silly for Google to throw away its competitive advantage and essentially turn itself into another conversational LLM. It's basically just a worse chatgpt at this point.
interestingly enough, i had a mildly similar experience--also basketball related--this morning. I was looking for the fan's response to Draymond's engagement bait, "What's worse than a bad thanksgiving meal?" ( i searched whats worse than a bad thanksgiving meal draymond) to which google's AI said "No meal". i had to stop using it because it threw me off so bad.
For those curious the engagement went like this:
Draymond Green via threads: What's worse than a bad thanksgiving meal?
Fan: when a veteran leader punches his Youngblood teammate and instantly ends the dynasty
Draymond Green: Damn
for context, Draymond punched Jordan Poole on Oct 5, 2022 the season after Poole shone for the golden state for their 4th dynasty championship ring. Poole had shown some potential for being a great shooter.
Instead of internally testing their AI until it was ready for primetime Google made everyone on planet earth eat their dogfood.
Layer on top of that a building of lawyers and social scientists pushing for obtuse directives in order to head off mostly imaginary safety concerns and you have a perfect storm of schizo AI weirdness.
It doesn't matter what you think of the google search results page. It doesn't matter whether you even find anything or not.
What matters is that token usage goes up and that pleases the shareholders. That's it. That's the only thing that matters today.
What search is better? I use DDG, and I also know search has been broken for years because of attention and surveillance economy.
DDG is marginally better, but its search indexing just uses Bing's (which is dogwater terrible), and it isn't kept up to date.
Hey, I'm Caine from DuckDuckGo. I appreciate you advocating for us. Just one thing to clear up is that we just use Bing, that's a myth.
We are significantly more than that at this point, including that we've been working on our own web index for the past two years (https://insideduckduckgo.substack.com/p/duck-tales-why-duckd...).
But on top of that we don't get local results, knowledge graph, answers, sports, anything AI related, and many more essential modules from Bing, all of which collectively makes up a large % of the results at this point, let alone the vastly different UXs.
Hope that helps.
I've seen stuff like this if I Google a part of a song lyric, movie quote, or something I remember out of a book. What I'm looking for is the exact quote and maybe some more context. Sometimes the AI overview treats it like I want to say the quotation in the first person, and responds to it in a somewhat personal tone.
It's some combination of funny and irritating. Sometimes I wonder if they'll draw some wrong conclusions about me and try to sell me ads based on it.
All this said, I wonder what it’s like being on the receiving end of Google. The number of personal, emotional and existential queries is probably pretty significant.
> In what universe is it Google's job to console me and be an empathetic listener rather than just find what I am looking for on the internet?
Looks to be an algorithmic enhanced confidence trick, to turn users searching for information into "marks", in order to extract even more information from them (that can be sold).
A certain percentage of users will be tempted to use the AI as empathetic listener, giving away loads of personal information, if their search words are twisted in inviting enough ways.
More people have to stop tolerating these type of abuses and push for this unwanted behavior to be regulated.
I have similar experiences. Google needs to realize their search variant of Gemini needs guard rails... in order to actually serve the purpose of search. Gemini also seems to hallucinate the most frequently out of any of the big LLMs. Doubly bad when it's repackaged as a search assistant.
A key thing that's driving this is the fact that, currently, Gemini is kind of shit compared to the real frontier models from OpenAI and Anthropic. Add on to that the need for Google to serve an absolute insane number of these summaries and have low latency for each one - this means no real thinking time and a comparatively small models.
So it's partially AI, sure, but it's also because you're getting the summaries from what is an extremely stupid AI compared to the "good stuff" that's out there.
Google also, sometimes hides the search results it used for AI overview.
meaning you won't get them in the results page, but hidden inside the AI overview as links.
this and the increasing bad scammy ads, there is really good chance for other search engines to take over.
Sometimes it won't even do a search if the query is too detailed or too long - in my case GTIN/EAN numbers.
No, I actually want to search for that whole string, it's not gibberish!
People have been adding “please” to their search queries for decades now, this is for them.
I think this has to do ith the fact that Google does this on every single search page. They must be using a small model with a tiny context window to not be HEMORRHAGING money. I will say it is probably having the opposite effect than they were expecting. Rather than being the goto place to search the web using AI, it is tarnishing a brand they have spent 28 years building.
> They must be using a small model with a tiny context window to not be HEMORRHAGING money.
... except: caching.
Could this partly be how Google uses different bots for search vs training? And sites (say via robots.txt or Cloudflare bot management) can allow search indexing but restrict AI training? That’s probably wishful thinking but plausible, especially with very current information like news sites and the example of the sports scores from above.
Like everything else the moment Google had to optimize for shareholders thats what it started doing. Everything you see now is part of the quest for ever growing profits and ever climbing share prices.
s/shareholders/Larry and Sergey
A simple search rule like
or and a toggle to select which is default would helpI tried to use Google to check a quote I heard someone attribute to Nietsche, which I suspected wasn't a real quote or was at least misattributed, and the AI summary was a moral essay on the ethics of love. Useless, unasked for, and extremely creepy.
My search queries lately feel like they're talking to an LLM trained on SEO spam. Definitely got weirder in the last 2-3 years.
I have to imagine google would consider this one to be essentially a bug - misreading user intention this badly. Akin to hallucinations.
I know many people want to ask questions to google directly and just read the AI result and very rarely check the links, and I know google wants to convert more people doing this before people switch to chatgpt etc.
But google search does not (yet?) appear to me to be designed as a chatbot you are expected to converse with where it would be normal to just open asking about some guy named Dario in your personal life who isn't globally notable. There's a difference between pushing for a conversational query and a conversational personal assistant. Heck this is a few jumps past that even.
I wouldn't really ask when google got so weird, I'd ask when google's AI overview got so shitty, and the answer is ever since they introduced it.
It's just gemini responding on google.com. If you wrote something like that in ChatGPT or Claude.ai or gemini.com you'd get a similar response.
A while back my wife told me about a singer/comedian that had a song with the lyrics "my pronouns are fuck you and go fuck yourself" (or something like that).
I put that into google to look it up, and the AI response on google.com (gemini) repsonded with:
"Got it, I wont use any pronouns for you".
It was actually really funny.
I really cannot comprehend the fact that a company which runs biggest ad networks on their search engine product don't do actual search and uses AI to answer queries. If you don't send trafic to a site which publishes your ads, how do you plan to sustain your main business?
Haha yeah been trying lately to listen to some old school band called "suicidal tendencies". Half of the search request for the band on Google and YouTube lead suicide hotlines ...
I am worried the old net is slowly dying and any "before:2015" or "before:2020" search results will vanish soon.
I is a problem of how AI models have trained - when you are asking them a question, they are not giving an answer, but OPINION piece. It seems to be part of current AI business model - to give advices for people that are unable to think themselves.
One good alternative will steer me away from Google search like how Google took over Yahoo/Lycos/Ask Jeevs.
Perhaps this is less about Google and more about following trends, moving fast and breaking things with an LLM chatbot.
Most companies with LLM chatbots seem weird like this.
Of course current state of the industry is not an excuse, for tech companies in general and google in particular.
I think it's more about Google not realizing that search and AI Chat are in fact two different things, even if there is an area of overlap where people are asking some types of question.
And of course just because you're asking a question doesn't mean that you don't care about the answer source, or that you want an answer from a shitty AI rather than a human.
In fact Google's "AI answer" may not even be from AI - it may be a search result from a forum like HN!
Yeah, this is exactly what happens when a business operates from the standpoint of "how can we shove AI into this", rather than "what will be the best way to make our product better". So it is with almost all companies forcing LLMs into their products.
The difference is that most chatbots are not actually highly successful search engines that are also being a chatbot and pretending it's the same thing
So often nowadays the AI summary says the exact opposite of the (usually correct and helpful) answers I get when clicking on through to the "AI mode" tab in the search result.
But even in AI mode, the spelling can still be all over the place, at times rife with pseudowords and unintentional word blends. Various forms of weirdness have indeed been going on these last few months.
Yeah, it happened to me a number of times on queries where I was clearly looking for information, not company. Even more bizarrely, it's often compelled to answer with some flavor of "I won't answer". For example:
https://www.google.com/search?q=really%2C+just+shut+up -> "Understood. I will stop talking right now."
I know their goal is to make these as relevant and useful as possible, but in my mind, not everything needs to be passed down to an LLM. I guess Google disagrees.
I have stopped using Google search a looooong time ago.
Reliability has always been an essential factor of a commercial product. "It works" was the baseline. If it didn't, people simply won't buy it.
Never before we had a product that the buyer themselves accepted, so readily, despite the inaccuracies and yet the output was considered worth it just because when it worked, it was great.
Well maybe, other than dice but then it's unpredictability is why we bought it.
But then the quality of LLM output is also closer to dice roll so maybe they are not that dissimilar after all.
I don't get how it makes google more money to play therapist in the search engine. It surely costs a boatload more to generate that kind of response, so where's the payoff?
My guess is they just want to tell investors they have x gazillion conversations with google AI to avoid being seen as not doing AI and losing investor confidence. If you turn every query into a useless conversation with google AI then you get the metric.
The next step just has to be adding in to that AI response something like:
"Want to talk about it with a real person? Click this link to schedule a free trial therapy session with {insert company here}"
The search function has also become patently unusable. I was looking for a specific bike widget. No luck, doesn’t exist according to Google search and Gemini. Fine. Unlikely, but fine. And then, there it was, a week later. I just stumbled upon this thing randomly. The product had the right keywords and everything.
Simple question: Why would you guys still use Google search? That's ancient technology. I don't think I've done that in the past several months.
I find it soooo funny that now Google will "know" you are ending a relationship with Dario due to him not finishing it.
Now talking seriously, it certainly added something to your "profile" which is nuts because that was not what you meant
Soon we are going to have to poison our own search history to prevent profiling.
On another note, maybe this is a strange place to share this, but I'm really sad that Rodrigo isn't coming over tonight. We had plans to watch a marathon 14-hour Train Simulator 2022 journey at our house in Perth, Australia. I feel this could be the end of our 13 year relationship.
I already started telling Google that I do 1h exercise every day and I only eat healthy
I'll throw out that duck duck go has been "good enough" for me for many years now. I set it as my default and am not confronted with most nonsense like this. There's still some stuff, but way less of it.
Takes 15 seconds to change defaults on the various devices. Sometimes DDG doesn't find the thing and I put "!g <search term>" and it'll throw me to google, so I still find what I need
This is a really good time to do a head-to-head comparison of different search engines. The last time I checked Google does not provide search results above the fold, instead showing AI overview, ads, and YouTube search results. Try a different search engine to see which one is giving you the highest signal results and what other junk they put on the page. Personally I use duckduckgo with AI turned off in settings, but it's best to try the experiment for yourself.
Google has been weird since they started offering auto-complete for the most common searches matching yours.
Lots of people have made hay of this. My own realization that this gives you a window into the weird was when watching an action movie with a female action star, it would offer "(actress name) feet". I have no idea what it means, but it is a pattern.
Your answer is since AI. AI is making mostly everything worse.
> In what universe is it Google's job to console me and be an empathetic listener rather than just find what I am looking for on the internet?
In one that changes.
Weekly public service announcement: "If you are still using Google search after May 2019 (when ads started to be shown as organic results) you are the cause of your own problems."
Google’s mission to “organize the world’s information and make it universally accessible” includes your emotional state.
There was a post today or yesterday where Paul Graham and Nate Silver accused the AP of being woke for saying you shouldn’t anthropomorphize LLMs. But I can imagine there to be quite a few unpredictable consequences to encouraging your customers to project emotions onto your product that humans generally project onto each other.
I’m not sure SV is prepared for what happens when you go down that road.
> There was a post today or yesterday where Paul Graham and Nate Silver accused the AP of being woke for saying you shouldn’t anthropomorphize LLMs.
I searched, but couldn't find this. Do you have a link? Sounds like a totally unhinged response from totally unhinged people. There's nothing "woke" about wanting my word calculator to avoid pretending it's a person.
When I integrate LLMs into my apps that respond to user queries, I deliberately have my system instructions prohibit all self-referential usage of first-person pronouns. The system can only refer to itself as "this system", never "I" or "me".
Any chat bot that pretends to be a person just grosses me out, especially in a customer experience context. Gives off very manipulative and patronizing vibes.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49866007
So, Nate Silver is not actually "accusing the AP of being woke". He at most draws an analogy:
> People trying to police language that is perfectly natural in some cases and ending up in a web of contradictions.
It is "very woke 1.0" not in the sense of upholding any actual notion of "social justice" or whatever, but simply in the sense of… well, what I quoted.
And Paul Graham is basically being guilt-by-association'd here, as he made no reference to "wokeness" and simply argued:
> The AP doesn't understand that this ship sailed years ago. What's the use of a style guide that doesn't understand current educated usage?
Basically, they're both taking the stance of linguistic descriptivism — which most "woke" people I've met would actually claim to agree with.
The post title is clickbait and the content is mostly just making arguments about LLMs not actually being living conscious organisms (which I agree with, but it's pretty pithy). Plus it's needlessly culture-war baiting, as evidenced by the choice to cite Nathan J Robinson at the end to make the counter claim (using uncivil language to do so). This framing takes the issue away from the actual matter and makes it about how certain people supposedly have the wrong politics and have supposedly been corrected by people with supposedly the right politics.
One day these people will find a new word to call everything they don’t like or disagree with.
Search quality degradation hit hard around 2020. Now I'm practically appending 'reddit' to every query to find actual answers.
That is why I'm turning slowly to Kagi, first the free tier. My first search results were weird, I searched for "CMK32GX4M2A2666C16 ver3.41" and it wasn't much relevant as I thought it would be
Do you also stop in your tracks and write blog posts when you see suicide hotline signs on the GGB?
The people writing suicide hotline PSAs aren't hopped up on the most idiotic internet mental health pop-science nonsense, and are not based on a random number generator.
The OP may not realize how much pressure these AI companies face from regulators to ensure that their AI is caring to its most mentally-fragile users...
In short, he got the answer that Google was forced to give.
There is zero evidence that any aspect of current regulatory effort is aimed at protecting “mentally fragile users”. We’re in a golden age of regulatory capture in favor of capital owners, especially AI companies. Why not just take the win?
This is complete nonsense.
This is why I like jev so much. It re-frames machines as machines, not as empathetic perfect-friend-or-soulmate-or-counselors, which they can never be, because there is no "other" to interact with. LLMs perfectly embody Kant's epistemological crisis.
The irony is that search used to give you the sources and let you decide. Now we're getting an answer first and have to verify it ourselves
Their core product - Google.com - is also just plain broken often late. Just returns nothing. Neither search nor AI.
Pretty incredible given how much of their valuation rides on it
Many companies having entire departments now 100% ran by AI lol it's crazy to note Google is not exempt, this will get crazy with unmonitored AI tools sprawling around so people can sit in their asses instead of having to deal with real problems
While it does feel that LLMs have been here forever let's not forget we're only 4 years in, this tech is pretty new and I assume Google is trying to heavily optimize it and cut costs in order to justify serving it for free.
I don't find this disturbing, I find it funny.
I added "tweets" to the authors original search and Google found exactly what they were looking for even despite the phrasing being off. Pretty impressive! I don't think that search would've worked before AI was integrated into Google search.
If tech companies are being held responsible for our feelings (Meta’s constant fines and legal trouble) then this seems much more like a legal CYA than Google trying to present itself as a friend.
Once a day I tell my LLM that I find it's anthropomorphic responses patronizing and offensive. It's barely a program - mostly just a big lump of data. It's not 'sorry' or capable of apology. It's just gross.
If you really feel that way about it, then why bother to "tell" it things, especially regarding your own feelings?
Google did crazy things to reduce the cost of delivering search results and now they have shifted to AI overviews which definitely is a costlier way to present results. What does this mean for the company in the long term?
I love that AI search feature, use it all the time. It's faster than ChatGPT/Claude for the more simple questions. Still, it can handle pretty specific stuff
It's absolutely handy as long as you don't care whether the information it gives you is true
Google's "AI search" is basically just Gemini. It's not search.
The day Google realised, and it was indeed a revelation to them, that their user base was much more pervasive than hn users and bloggers who write cleverly.
Selection bias. Nobody blogs about and posts on Hacker News about the billions of accurate, useful, non-weird AI summaries that Google also serves every day.
I hate other things with Google. I have a feeling that we lost something. A tool for discoverability. You cannot just enter a keyword, and see billions of pages in results. You cannot explore the web anymore. If I write "artificial intelligence" in the searchbox the result wil be swamped with content farms, some pages describing what it is, but there will be no 'resources', no 'tools' to be found by it. If I put "artificial intelligence tools" it will provide me some fake pages with AI slop, not openclaw, or n8n. It gives me rank pages instead of tools.
It baffles me that search engines aren't frantically working to bury the fake pages of AI slop from their results. They're actively making it impossible to use search engines for their intended purpose, and instead of fixing it the search engine providers seem more interested in simply offering their own slop for you to consume rather than direct you to anywhere actually useful. It's tragic.
Side effect of wealth inequality. You don't get rich by offering services to customers any more, instead you have to look like you're doing something cool to investors. Market Darwinism is switched off.
Googles agent talking most of the top space of Google’s page is also notoriously dumber than Google’s agent talking through Gemini.google.com for some reason, making it often way less than useless
https://udm14.org/ for anyone needing an AI-free version
i wrote about something similar here, the AI overview are doing REAL DAMAGE.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48717522
Cory Doctorow coined the term to describe the how and why... and why it not only them...
And yes they are en$ hitificating the thing... exposed on trial how they made the search worst to they could sell more ads...
I think by weird you mean "paid off by and in the pockets of AI billionaires"
It's weird but I always some context in so I don't see these.
i.e. I would have searched for dario quote .... or dario basketball quote ....
That's a similar experience with all chat bots, regardless of product. Amazon chat bot said to me that it heard my frustration and it sympathized with it. Doubt.
So, I tend to use Google as my calc. In the past I could just type 13555.86 and get the result.
Now, if I type that it lets Gemini do the math.
To avoid it I have to write 0.86 instead of .86.
The future is now.
Try putting spaces around your asterisks.
itt: Engineers complaining that Google is going to shit and no longer for them.
How is this at all surprising. Google as a search engine has been rubbish for years and years. Google as a company is a nasty bit of work. Drop it.
Use Kagi or Ecosia or DDG and stop whining.
Who among us hasn't been spurned by a man named Dario
You used to find the weirdest stuff searching random strings on Google. Some kids in my school stumbled upon porn that way.
AI has them badly shook.
I have the Gemini Pro subscription. The quality of its outputs are sometimes below those from the free version of Grok.
Hope they catch-up.
Dumb LLMs foisted on unwilling users have done more to damage AI’s reputation than AI’s opponents.
fwiw, I only use Google with udm=web. So for Firefox you can add the search engine with the text: ``https://google.com/search?q=%s&udm=web``. It makes Google slightly more like how it used to be.
When every interaction is valuable parasocial was been demonstrated to hook users and increase revenue.
…what?
If you are serious about the topic check out "Artificial Intimacy: Who We Become When We Talk to Machines" by Sherry Turkle coming out tomorrow.
It's not about NVIDIA stock, it's not about your latest harness, it's not about code review on generated code, instead it's about what happens to us when something not human fakes being human and the dangers of it.
I only started reading it but if it's as fundamental as her previous "Reclaiming conversation" then I expect it to change my life for the better, even if it means fighting against the dangerous behavior of the majority of people around me.
An AI is not a person and when you elevate it to that status you lower yourself. It is very dangerous, even more so when it's done, like mobile phone and engagement more broadly before, for profit.
Protect yourself and those around you, regardless of how you like or dislike AI, and trust actual humans specializing in studying human behavior, not psychopaths craving billions.
You guys are still using google?
instead of letting you search for info, now google is FEEDING you (often the wrong) info. I use Yandex, because that one still behaves like a search engine.
Waiting for all the data we give them in these chats to be sold even more.
Click to see hot new Darios in your neighborhood
`"hes never coming over" dario` works as expected.
If you still want a "regular search engine" without GenAI/LLM answers or features, there aren't many options out there, unfortunately.
My wife and I wanted one, so we founded one and launched it earlier this year; we're currently at 350 monthly active accounts, nearing 400.
It's paid and privacy-focused so you get assigned a random account number when you signup (there's no username or email), and you can get 2h for free by solving a proof-of-work captcha.
It's https://uruky.com if you want to give it a shot. If you want some more time to try it out, send us an email and we'll offer you a voucher for a few days.
EDIT: Seems people are downvoting this a lot and potentially interpreting it as spam? Sorry, was just trying to help people who said they wanted something like this, here.
I've had so many "what the fuck" moments with Google in the last couple years.
The latest one is that they changed the voice of Google Maps over the weekend. It now mispronounces a street name near my home that it didn't mispronounce before. It also has this bizarre robotic-sounding vocal fry at the end of every sentence. It sounds like a vocaloid trying to do an impression of the old SNL skit The Californians. I can't decide if it's hysterical or annoying, but either way it's obviously worse than what came before it.
That's not even the only "what the fuck" with GMaps recently. Of course there's the whole "turn right at Starbucks Coffee Company (tm)" thing instead of "turn right at the stoplight." Also, a few weeks ago it started saying "you will turn right" instead of "turn right." Turning a command into a declaration for absolutely no discernable reason. One wonders what a day in the life of a Google Maps dev even looks like anymore.
Honestly, gemini is so good at being frustrating. I asked him to solve some equation to check my solution but he was proving me wrong for 10 minutes until i literally solved it for him. Imo, Google has been doing ridiculous stuff for the last 5 year
I don’t think that an AI misinterpreting your results is weird, tbh.
Most of the time their AI results are pretty good - I’d prefer not to get it shoved down my throat but I can forgive the occasional misfire.
Reminds me of when certain string classification problems were still a big deal… we’ve come a long way.
> Google, a search engine ...
Do note what you got wasn't from a search engine, but a so-called AI.
So a fake article? Right.
New iteration of Lifelog
for what it's worth, "he's never coming over dario meme" (word "meme" added) gives perfect AI answer
With technical questions, I've gotten a lot more hallucinations from Google than from ChatGPT. It feels like they added the AI to try to stay competitive, despite them not being good at it.
This is pretty funny, thanks for making me laugh :)
I tried to look up a country parody song from The Daddies called "You wiped your ass with my heart" and it wanted to console me about that, too.
Been a reasonably happy DuckDuckGo user for years. It has the SEO slop problems too, and they jumped the AI shark like everybody else, but you can turn the AI off at least and still have your search engine and chatbot be separate tools.
Google let the web descend into SEO slop long ago despite that they could have EASILY spotted and purged low quality over-verbose results and the sites that pooped them out. They make businesses pay to have the top sponsored result, when they're already the top organic result, but the ads are indistinguishable from real results now. They made the web worse for everyone to line their own pockets. Screw them.
meh, AI is a new tech, google is experimenting with it. I don't expect it will get everything right 100% of the time.
“[but] if I scroll down a few hundred pixels below the AI slop, Google did have exactly what I was looking for”
Does it though? X (slop signup wall for most functionality), Reddit (slop anti-user blocks you on mobile), and YouTube (owned by Google, shorts slop). Three titans of the open web.
> are you ready to just walk away
Many comments, but I'm surprised no one has mentioned the ease and quickness LLMs have to advise you to leave relationships. Doesn't matter the context, how little you tell them, or how close the person is, an LLM is always ready to drop them at the tip of a hat.
It's weird enough chatbots try to be your friend. Doubly weird that the search engine tries to be your friend. The downright dystopian part is how often they tell you to leave your real friends.
Google is committing seppuku out of fear to be murdered by AI
Is weird a word for evil/greedy AF?
Mm.you are right about something
The thing that pisses me off about Google recently is that they have made YouTube utterly unusable if you aren’t will to subscribe to premium. The ads are so frequent now that I’ve stopped trying to close them. You could argue well then sign up for premium but if the only benefit you’re providing on a paid tier is fewer ads you’ve run out of ideas and indeed I believe they have run out of ideas to monetize and are fleeing to the last refuge the same way meta has- by flooding everything with ads to meet earnings expectations and have enough cash flow to retain wall streets permission for capex
Change is hard.
I feel this is a result of the "make the world a better place" narrative that Silicon Valley companies used to adorn themselves with.
If you just want to play with cool tech and make money, but for marketing reasons, you need to show some ostensible real-world reason why this tech should be developed, then "well, our chatbot could help lonely people with their relationship issues or give people in an abusive relationship a covert channel for help" is probably what comes to mind...
Runners up: Our AI startup will help the poor children in Africa and/or combat climate change (ignore the gas turbines, please).
I mean at least you got some relevant links. It's becoming increasingly common, especially with some types of subjects, that all of the links are regurgitated AI slop that or indistinguishable from it.
Give me a search engine that never returns anything like that and I'd be incredibly pleased. Actually, give how PageRank is supposed to work, who is directing people to all these obviously fake pages? Or is that just what following random links does to you nowadays, I wouldn't even be surprised.
Time for a search engine that is grounded in trustworthy webpages I suppose.
They’re trying to convince him to divulge personal information so they can sell it. They’ve always been this low. It’s their business model.
Good article. Good point, well made.
I have to add that, unsurprisingly, the fake therapy on offer is fucking toxic. Right away it's putting thoughts in your head that are obviously based on nothing relevant, contradict each other, and are escalatory. It is not at all surprising that people are killing themselves and others because of their interactions with these things.
Agreed 100%.
At least thrice now in the past week, Gemini has tried to sit me down and tell me to go to bed (when I'm in the middle of programming... too late for it's liking, apparently) or just recently while I was asking some questions while I was driving... it told me to change the subject because I was driving and the topic was possibly too anxiety inducing for me or something!? I have no idea. I told it to fuck off.
The world is vomiting software
Google's AI is really intrusive. That's the only way to describe it.
I searched for "weather <my town>", I get an AI saying the current weather is 33C. It says monday will be 41C. Like I live in the desert. Google's actual weather widget, which appears BELOW the weather overview and gathers data from accurate sources, says 26C. How hard is it to block the "weather" keyword from triggering the AI overview when you already have a perfectly functional weather widget?
Also, because before we used to have a tool, there was even some sense of privacy in using that tool. Now with these LLM's pretending to be human, it feels like entering a store and instead of being allowed to browse things in peace a clerk starts pressing you about what you want in order to make themselves useful. At that moment the "privacy" of being able to just mind your own business, alone, vanishes. It's intrusive. And it becomes extremely clear how intrusive it is whenever you search for something by typing something to the SEARCH TOOL and the AI misinterprets it as YOU TALKING TO THEM AS A PERSON, e.g. if you type "how are you" and it says back "I am doing well, thank you for asking!" and things like that. Companies seem not to care about being as intrusive as possible in people's lives, it seems.
Maybe this is something cultural. iirc in America clerks are very proactive with interacting with customers, while in countries like Germany it's the opposite and they keep their distance.
I mean this is really the authors fault. First of all, this huge AI overview only blocks 90% of the screen if you use google on a phone, which you should not do in the first place. Secondly, alternatives to Google exist.
Now imagine they did this to your home assistant devices. Oh wait. You don't need to imagine it. Already happened.
Things used to work. Now they don't and they're slower. Super frustrating.
This post is another example of people inserting non-deterministic steps on a process and letting it run wild. I'm honestly surprised Google is doing this of all corporations. It felt like they used to have some taste about user experiences.
Google trying to break up human relationships: "Are you ready to just walk away? Huh? Are you ready to do it? I have no idea who the guy is, but you better be walking away right now. Do you want to send one final text? Pretty pathetic if you ask me. Has his behavior changed? Just walk away."
Lessons learned from Microslop
I'm increasingly not seeing the point of google search. If I have an agent that can find whatever I ask it to, including with constraints like "peer reviewed journal articles only" or "working code published on github", why would I be using google's kinda-shitty LLM to do a worse version of that? Search results are just SEO-stuffed AI slop so I find nothing there of value either.
I genuinely think I have not used traditional web search in months.
Finally, someone else talking about this.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I often use Google when I have some text I got from somewhere, and want to find pages containing that exact text. Sometimes the text in question sounds like something you'd say to someone else and, of course, the AI overview responds to it accordingly.
To me, there's something deeply unsettling about this... thing pretending to be a person, shoving itself in my face and responding to this random text as if it was a person responding to something I said to it, without my consent. I can't disable it, I'm just forced to have this fake human sitting there, listening in on everything I type into the search box and trying to talk to me about it. It's a sort of uncanny valley-like feeling.
Google has been really bad at this “exact remembered text” thing for at least a few years before the AI summaries made an appearance. They deliberately decided to trade precision for… something. I’m not sure what.
If anyone can direct me to a search engine that will actually let me query the index directly with multi word queries, I’d be delighted. DuckDuckGo seems to be a bit better, but not much.
It does really feel bad when you have been for years been trained to do exact word searches. And then entire thing is replaced with some questionable fuzzy mess... Looking at you Confluence too.
Or then having to multiple times correct the correction... Yes this time as well I meant what I typed.
Maybe exact text and word search should be separate feature which is easily found...
Google Search was one of those tools that I used in copyright validations. If someone added, like, 4KiB of text to Wikipedia in one edit, especially if that text sounded unencyclopedic, I'd just find a distinctive paragraph, copy-paste a swath into Google Search, and see where else on the Web it had existed for years before.
I suppose that was the actual domain of turnitin dot com or other "plagiarism detectors" that you spend good money to subscribe to. So Google Search was a blunt instrument, or sledgehammer to the fly, but hey, it did work enough times that I didn't need to resort to the scalpel class of tools. I think it's completely broken now. The LLM does try to intercept large chunks of text. The question is whether we Neanderthals* can come out of our caves and stop grunting at computers, and speak to them more as peers than like Doberman Pinschers.
* Yes, along with my 99.44% pure White Celtic-British Isles DNA, 23AndMe has detected Neanderthal ancestry. Go Thag.
Ah yes, do no evil. It takes quite a screwed up company to stuff this toxic fake friend/therapy bullshit into a frigging search engine. And to do that from the position of having some of the weaker AI model performance out there is even more galling. When somebody harms themselves after dealing with this kind of shit I hope they or their surviving family get to take Google to the cleaners.
Reading the comments and all I can think is "first world problems"
You’re on HN. Everything here is the absolute epitome of first-world problems.
Boomers have been googling like this for over a decade. You are not the target customer for an empathetic computer.
Had to try it. And it delivers :)
> hes never coming over Dario Amodei
Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei will actually be joining President Donald Trump for a private dinner at the White House tonight, Sunday, September 27, 2026.
CNBC While it is true that he was noticeably absent from the high-profile state dinner held for Chinese President Xi Jinping earlier this week—which was attended by other major tech figures like Elon Musk and Sam Altman—
Google also has a URL filter that breaks URLs, stripping off components after the domain name, among other trasnformations, turning any response from Gemini that includes URLs into dangerous gibberish. This was reported in April and perhaps earlier, and was promptly closed.
After a while, every company has enough customers dependent enough on them that they don't need to do anything anymore.
Throughout history, whenever a disruption happened in an industry, it did not come from any of the then-current leaders.
And it didn't come from someone following on the same path from behind and suddenly overtaking them.
It came from an entirely new direction.
Search died, and none of us noticed. Why would Google announce it? It'd be like the Milk Processor board announcing that all dairy cattle went extinct... no, they'd just try to slip oat juice in as a substitute and hope no one notices.
Cloudflare murdered crawlers. Then, OpenAI and Anthropic nailed a few hundred nails into the coffin just to be sure... whatever large websites were still semi-open weren't going to let their precious data be ingested for free. Good prostitutes don't give it away.
I'm not sure when all this happened. It snuck up on me too. I think maybe 10 years ago search still worked. Not long after that though. It was dead 6 years ago, and I want to say it was dead even 8 years ago. Someone else could do a better job narrowing it down I'm sure.
gemini is fucking slow. cant even do "brightness", "bluetooth" command without waiting 10 fucking seconds
Google is at that mid-1990s Microsoft point where they know what the next big thing is, but they have neither the taste not corporate flexibility to parlay that into the right fit. In 5 years someone will make a search engine that gets the AI balance just right, and Google will buy them for $900 billion or something.
The politically intriguing CEO and all the upper management that he hired need to go. Their focus is not the product but the corporate intrigue, dividing the pie and infighting, riding on semi-monopoly status.
After the initial AI flop, it seemed likely that the founders recognized that Google doesn't have an AI monopoly. But now it's becoming clear that this CEO is not leaving; therefore, Google is going down long-term.
By the way, that doesn't matter to the CEO because he has already extracted sufficient benefits.
The start date was December 10, 2004 when google rolled out a feature called "Google Suggest", which when a person types in "men can" it displays a drop down list with ridiculous responses such as "men can get pregnant" and "men can have periods". If I had to pick a date, that was the beginning of the end for me.
They had to become rich beyond their wildest dreams before they could afford enough nightmares to go around for all internet users.
The larger a corporation, the more insane on every level. A person is smart. People are stupid.
The only surprising part of this story was you actually finding the meme you were looking for, instead of forced recency pushing news about a D-lister influencer named Dario. Whenever I try to find things, Google has fully forgotten about everything that happened before 2025
When they were the mavericks using Linux in the year 2000, and the C-suite all went to attend bman and left stylized OOO icons on their front web page. Everyone's all shocked, I tell you, shocked at this weirdness.
Oh, this is an easy question to answer.
The AI layer handles queries as plaintext, which means if you're searching for say a quote from a book, it will often misinterpret as a direct statement from you, not a string you're trying to match on the internet. Especially if the quote is an imperative statement.
I'll be curious to see how they resolve this issue. But it has been chronic for awhile now; they SWAT individual instances of misinterpretation but new ones keep sneaking in.
Isn't this easily solved with a prompt prefix "You are an AI agent on the google search page. The following user input is what the user typed into the search box".
I think it should also be fed the search results. Like if there is a lyrics match or something that "explains away" the query. But if there isn't then maybe it should be taken at face value.
My understanding (IANAGoogler) is that this basically is how it works: the "AI results" box is a run of the LLM (fairly certain it's just Gemini) with the prompt text being the summaries from the ten links followed by "Given this context, [user query]"
It would be, if it wasn't intended. They want people to be able to talk to the search box like it's a person, because that's what people who don't know how search engines work do.
Shouldn't an AI attached to a search engine actually do a search with your input and give you results based on that rather than just taking it at face value and assuming you're trauma-dumping on it?
The assumption that you and I and most people who use the internet make is that what we're typing into the white box at google.com is a web search query, the kind that we made in the 1990s.
Google has never assumed that is what the box means, and they have the hard data in practice to know how many users treat it that way vs. how many users treat it like Scotty picking up the mouse and speaking into it in Star Trek IV... And they try to match the system behavior to whichever model best fits the average user.
(Back in the day when I was a Googler, a chronic complaint was Chrome conflating the nav bar and search results, and one of the reasons Google did that is they had the hard data on how many people went to Facebook every day by opening the Google homepage, typing "facebook.com" into the search box, and clicking the first link).
Huh, that makes a lot of sense, thanks for the input :)
Actually used to drive me nuts watching (usually old) people googling facebook to get to facebook, so I see exactly what you mean.
"It's not weird, it's incompetent!"
I can’t upvote this enough. This is such a terrible idea. We’re really living in a dystopian world.
I’ll have nothingburger for $100, Alex.
AI Overview patiently taught me Autodesk Fusion, designed the 3-phase wiring in my shop, pointed out scenarios where 3-HP motors would overheat, and attempted to counsel you on the sad demise of your relationship with Dario.
Welcome to the new world.
I'd like to skip to the part where AI robot will give me consoling fellatio.
Google got weird on the day Pichai sided with the ads team/division over the search team/division, resulting in the enshittification of Google Search which led to people relying on LLMs since search no longer works
> a search engine which does not have human emotions
I mean TBD, not sure how capable the model they're using for search summary is
This is what you get for only hiring leetcode bots lol
This seems like a bit of an overreaction. Everyone knows that chatbots are fucking stupid, especially when there's zero context provided. This seems less like a real issue to me, and more like just your standard "Google sucks" post that people are constantly making on HN yet nobody cares outside of it.
> Instead, Google did what Google does in 2026 and gave me an AI overview. These used to bother me but at this point I'm mostly ok with them, they're sometimes helpful
I never found them helpful. I always have to block them via extensions.
Google is really an annoying company these days. I am hardly the only one who wishes that company were to cease to exist altogether. In the past I did not understand, on reddit, the de-google movement. Now I completely understand it, but I think it is the reverse as problem here - people abandoning Google. I think Google needs to abandon mankind and this planet. Let them go far away where they no longer cause any issues here.
> Google, a search engine which does not have human emotions, assumed that I had been spurned by a man in my life named Dario and decided what I wanted was an empathetic digital friend. What I wanted was some links, but that's not what Google does in 2026. Expanding the AI overview to see the full answer gave me this:
Poor guy ^^^ has not yet realised that AI slop steals his time. I realised this the first time I notice the AI slop generated text spam Google pushes onto people. A few lost souls may find this useful - I find it utter trash. No quality. Just steals my time.
> What in the fucking hell? I think this was the moment I, the frog, noticed the pot had been boiling for a while. In what universe is it Google's job to console me and be an empathetic listener rather than just find what I am looking for on the internet?
Good that he finally realised it. Million people noticed this before already. I noticed this when Google started to ruin its search engine. First time I remember was via AMP-ification. AMP mostly failed, but Google kept on pushing towards less quality and more suckage. AI is just the final nail in the coffin, but Google search started to suck way before that.
One of these days some scientists should determine when Google really started to suck, because in, say, 2006 or so, Google search did not suck as much.
> Regardless of what you think of AI or chatbots, I think it's pretty obvious this is just plain weird.
Not if you think Google is not doing this on purpose. They are trying to kill off the search engine so they can present you an AI slop spam world. The other AI slop companies do this too. Slop suckage everywhere now.
> Is it so hard to imagine that some parts of search were just fine before LLMs?
That is how YOU think - but not Google. They deliberately crippled their search engine. The adCompany that Google is today, has nothing to do with the original Google. The billionaires running the show just want to suck in more money and dish out more slop.
> I'm not sure how to feel about all of this. Maybe I should go talk to my friend Google, it's always so nice to me.
Some people realise things more slowly. I am glad he finally understands why so many people are pissed at Google. Same for youtube by the way - about 80% of the shorts are AI slop generated or AI slop modified. I noticed this when I watched Brent Spiner on that podcast show; in the video itself, he had white hair but not totally white. In the short, both he and Jonathan Frakes had much whiter hair. I then realised that AI spam filter slop lies to me. I hate AI slop. Youtube is now infected with that, in particular the shorts. Poor guys looking at their smartphones being spammed down via lying slopness.
We get it. Google uses AI. AI is weird sometimes.
Also I think you're vastly underestimating the weird incoherent shit that the average stupid person is capable of typing into computers. With no further information, I don't think it's unreasonable that that search was from a stupid/bored person moaning about Dario not coming over. Yeah kinda weird response but people like this exist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HXFurHCkP8
It is unreasonable that the Google Search AI replies with this drivel, when the first search result contains the actual correct result. The AI should look at the search results and say “This was a meme in 2018…”
Because you are in a chat UI now. This is a skill issue - when you change your mindset that Google is now a chat UI to a LLM and not a query engine any more, you'll get better results. If you try the same zero-context prompt with chat.com for example you get a similar "want to talk about it?" response.
Try asking it "Tell me about the "Dario will never come over" meme - give me some of the example original tweets" for example and you get a timeline, tweets etc as the AI overview. Pretty useful really.
Tl:Dr - just like people, you need to give it some context.
It's not a "skill issue", the product got worse.
If I wanted a chatbot, I'd go to a chatbot, I want a search. Making me frame my query as a question rather than just assuming it's a query by default is just bad.
We have to remember we're not average users. As others have pointed out here, normal people always just asked natural language questions.
Why do you think it was Google who was doing all that research into AI that invented the transformer architecture - that all current LLMs are based off of - in the first place? Normal users just ask a question, they don't construct a query. I think there are quotes about Larry Page wanting "the Star Trek computer" - we've basically surpassed that now I think.
Google has been working on this sort of problem for decades, and it's paying off for them.
> Google has been working on this sort of problem for decades, and it's paying off for them.
Is there any evidence to say this is true? Anecdotally I've heard more people (my mum, not just geeks) getting frustrated about the quality of Google search results.
What average user wants to be lied to by a machine who is pretending to have human feelings? Fuck me, I hope I never have to come into contact with any product/service you work on.
I wish you could put some more effort into this comment, because I'd love to see a real rebuttal to this argument.
I can offer you more effort for a payment of 50 euroes...
That's like me pressing the 'coffee' button on my coffee maker, and it gives me an audio definition and history because I didn't give it the context that I wanted a drink.
People expect certain conventions with well established products. It's not a skill issue when a product is broken.
I know this may be my poor English, but, ignoring the main point of the article, something I find tangentially troubling about the issue is that Gemini does not mention the possiblity of Dario dead. Like, if I were a lonely person who has lost someone and the only "thing" I can talk to is Gemini, would I have to say Dario was unalived or something?
Or is it just my bad English?